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The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
I am more convinced than ever that nothing that traditional bar organizations are doing is going to move the needle on the sad stats on lawyer happiness ...
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Episode 196: Turning Burnout Into Adventure with Dr. Kelly Wright
Harvard-trained surgeon. Sustainability expert. Marathoner. Points-and-miles strategist.
Dr. Kelly Wright is redefining what it means to live a full, balanced life.
In this episode, Ben Glass sits down with Dr. Wright — Director of Minimally Invasive Gynecologic Surgery at Cedars-Sinai and founder of Points and Miles Doc — to explore how high achievers can fight burnout, build better boundaries, and use the power of travel to recharge and stay inspired.
They unpack:
- How doctors (and lawyers) can avoid the trap of overwork and exhaustion
- Why creating “multiple realms” in life keeps you grounded and resilient
- How to turn your business expenses into first-class travel experiences
- The biggest mistakes people make with points — and how to fix them
- Why decarbonizing healthcare and sustainable travel actually align
Ben and Kelly also swap marathon stories, share how small habits protect your joy, and talk about the importance of pursuing passions outside your profession.
🎧 Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
One day I was looking at these points and saying, what are these really valuable? What what can we get from them? I had this concept in my mind that you could earn points for spending money, but I didn't really know what the value of those points were and how to optimize it.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show that challenges the way lawyers and professionals think about life, business, and success. Hosted by Ben Glass, attorney, entrepreneur, coach, and father of nine, this show is about more than just practicing. For over 40 years, Ben is built. Lawyers create practices to make good money. Lawyers, doctors, thinkers, and builders. These are people creating all careers and lives without burning out or selling out. If you're ready to stop playing small and start thinking like a renegade, you're in the right place. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_01:Hey everyone, this is Ben. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast. As you know, every episode we get to interview someone inside or outside of legal who's dinging the world. Today we're back into the world of my friends at the White Coat Investor Conference. We'll be gathering in Las Vegas next spring in 26. And so I've rounded up a whole bunch of interesting speakers. You've listened to a bunch of them. But today I have Dr. Kelly Wright. And I was just making sure that her resume is exactly what it my team showed me because it's amazing the number of stuff you get done. So Dr. Wright is a Harvard-trained minimally invasive gynecologic surgeon and director of minimally invasive gynecologic surgery at Cedar Sinai Medical Center out in, I think, in California, in LA. That's true. So that's like one, she's famous for that. And then she's also an internationally recognized expert in sustainability in healthcare and medical waste reduction, and a major thought leader in decarbonizing the healthcare system. So that's, I mean, like a highly trained person who's, you know, doing what you can do for your patients and thinking this bigger, broader picture. She's also a, did we say, six-star or now uh six-star marathon, or she's run some of the largest marathons in the world, including Tokyo, Boston, London, Berlin, Chicago, the New York City Marathon. But we're not really talking about any of that stuff today because I don't know when you sleep. I want to ask you about, like, if I followed you around for a week, what would I see you do? But the Dr. Wright has also developed this extreme niche in an interesting subspace of maximizing travel points, airline points, in order to fly first class around the world. And I'm sure I'm even understating that. But in part because of her interest in something that both of our professions have, which is high achievers and burnout, and high achievers and exhaustion. And I think from what I read, Doctor, using travel as an as an antidote and then being able to do it efficiently, because you know this. Most of us, we don't have time. If I have points and it kind of matches with something I'm doing, I'll use it. I'm sure I'm not maximizing. I'm not, my son is really good. Brian is really good about thinking in advance of how do I arrange the next two years so I get points and efficiently use them. I'm not that guy. But that's why we have you here today. So thanks for carving out some time for us.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. And thanks for that introduction. I think on paper, maybe all of these different components don't make sense. But I hope, and I think your audience can understand that my work as a healthcare provider, a sustainability expert, and a points expert is somebody who wants to save the world, the environment and human health and biodiversity so that we can see the wonderful things in the world and use our limited time here to take time off and see that and prevent burnout in our careers. And not only is there high levels of exhaustion and burnout in our professions, but there's also high expenses. I mean, just to get to where we are, we spend tons of money having the privilege of practicing in our professions. And so my aim, I got into Points in Mildred, but my aim in talking about it to others was really trying to take these expenses, which for us can be seen as a huge burden, and turning it into an ability to take time off and travel in a way that can let us see the world how we want to.
SPEAKER_01:Here's something that is important. I think you would appreciate is when we talk to our members, we talk about the importance of having what I call many different realms to your life. So, for example, I'm an attorney, I coach lawyers, but I my weird niche is I referee youth and high school soccer games, like for 51 years. Like, who does that? Who wants to go out there and get screened at? And I've run five marathons, and when you're running a marathon, the Marine Corps marathon in Washington, DC, everybody is cheering for you. When you're out doing a game, half the people hate you. But it's really, really, it's we feel it's really, really important to have different areas of your life that you find interesting, because then it's really hard to have a horrible day because everything would have to go wrong all at the same time. And that's almost impossible to happen. So for those of us who exercise, work out, run, whatever that sort of drug of choice, activity of choice is, you always have that. And um I we, my wife and I just came back from a bike tour across New Hampshire. And some of the days it was cloudy and rainy. I'm like, but this is awesome. It's just like when we were little kids, we we rode our bikes in the rain and in puddles and did stuff. And that was really fun. I am curious though, because you're very busy, very accomplished. If I did follow you around for a week or so, like, how do you were, and we are always curious about how high achievers manage their lives, you know, keep interruptions, how um maximize our own happiness in terms of the work or the activities for recreation that we are doing. How do you think about that and how do you manage it? Because you are busy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think it does come down to boundaries and blocking your time accordingly and then investing in the your time and the things that you enjoy, just like you would invest money in certain things. So I try to teach this to my team and to my junior partners as well, that people know how to, we're surgeons, people know how to get in touch with us. People have my phone number. That means I I have all other notifications off. So you can text me and you can call me, but my phone doesn't push through any other notifications. And if somebody needs to reach me, they can call me. There's no such thing as an urgent email. And when I'm at work, and maybe people will find this surprising, in a surgeon's day, there's actually a lot of downtime because I may do four to seven cases a day, but between every case, the room needs to be cleaned, it needs to be set up. There may be time, 45 minutes to an hour. I have time to get things done. I can do my notes, my messages, all of my clicks on the computer that I need to do in an effort to try and avoid bringing this home. So again, I try to coach my team and even my trainees. When you're at work, work hard, be efficient, get it all done. And so then when you come home, of course, we have obligations to call and to our patients if somebody needs us after hours. But many days no one needs us and we can go home, and that's okay. And if you turn on your computer and log back in, you're going to find work to do. But if you can batch your work efficiently, then when you get home, you get to spend that time with your family exercising. If you enjoy cooking, if you enjoy looking at point steals like I do, you get to carry out your hobbies in your free time.
SPEAKER_01:So um, and the great thing is that all of that makes you a better professional for your patients and for those other healthcare providers that you are leading and training. Because, you know, the the stressed out, overworked, no fun Kelly would not be good for the ladies, the folks that you are taking care of, and the teams that you are you are training. And so that's important too. But it is, you know, people who are driven, who all their life have achieved, you know, you must have done really well in undergrad, and you you physicians, particularly surgeons and fellows, like you have this long training before they unleash you on the world all while you're you're incurring, you know, a lot of debt. Uh but then you gotta be good and uh and you gotta stay good for a number of years. So so thank you for sharing that. How did you get interested in points and maximizing travel?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, I always loved traveling, but I didn't necessarily have the money to do it. So I was always looking for the least expensive cash deals and you know, whatever we could afford, maybe once or twice per year. Because as you say, you come out of your training and you have big loans still to pay off, and maybe you want to start your life. And so there's there's not a lot of extra funds around. I everybody says who learns about points wishes they would have learned sooner because it can let you into this space, even while you're a trainee. Maybe you're renting in school. There's cars that pay you for rent now and give you points for rent that you can turn into vacations. But I started it actually because my spouse was traveling a lot for work and had accumulated lots and lots of points. And we really didn't know what to do with it. And so one day I was looking at these points to say, what are these really valuable? What can we get from them? I had a concept of points because I grew up in the Dallas area. We had family friends who were pilots for American, obviously, they're based in Dallas. And my family or very early on had an American Airlines credit card. So I had this concept in my mind that you could earn points for spending money, but I didn't really know what the value of those points were and how to optimize it. It literally came down to I Googled one day what something was worth as far as a point and if if we should try to achieve a status on American Airlines. It brought me to the points guy. This was over a decade ago, and this was when Brian Kelly, the points guy, had a was mostly doing the writing and had a core team of writers who wrote really great content. I think I finished reading the internet that day. I can certainly focus, and I sat down and I read for about eight hours about this concept of not only airline miles or hotel points, but also this concept of transferable points. And what that is, is these are our bank credit cards, things like American Express, Chase, uh City, Capital One. These are points that you earn from spend on credit cards and then could be transferred to multiple different airline or hotel programs. So that's why they're called transferable points. And what I really learned about transferable points was that it gives you this level of flexibility that you might not otherwise have when you're you're confined by a tough professional career. If you want to go a certain place on a certain date because you have one week off, well, you need to have the exact right miles for the airline that flies there. And you might not know ahead of time if that's American or United or an international airline, but if you have transferable points, then you have the flexibility to make that happen for you. So I think after learning about that, our first big trip we booked to Patagonia in 2017 using airline miles, using points to offset hotels. And that was the first time we were ever able to spend on a luxury hotel out in Patagonia, outside of Torres del Pine's beautiful area in southern Chile. And otherwise, we would have never been able to afford that experience. So over time, what points have allowed us to do is not just afford vacations, but really redirect that spend into places that are meaningful to us. So we like looking at animals, so safaris and being out in nature, eco-lodges, places that really invest in their communities that are giving back, supporting local communities while giving travelers really unique experiences. So that's it's been more than 10 years, and I keep track of everything on a spreadsheet naturally, as you would suspect somebody like me would. And I spent at this point over 8 million points for about 450,000 travel experiences, whether airfare or or hotels. And even though I've done it, it's still astounding to me that that has offset that amount of cost where we've been able to save that money instead, um, and uh and still get those incredible experiences.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think from reading some of the material I have about you, you have turned that into a business, like one more thing in your life. Is that right with courses or webinars and things like that?
SPEAKER_02:That's right. I did, I have uh I'm most active on Instagram as a platform. I decided that I was talking about points so much and maybe too much at work. And I said, I need to find people that actually want to hear about this. So I started my Instagram page about three years ago, developed that platform, and then I developed some courses and also some free resources for people to use to start from zero and go through a process to book your first trip in just a few short hours because we are limited on time. All the information is out there on the internet for fun. But sometimes it can be hard to know exactly what you need. So that's why I put it together for those who are interested.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's I think it's just amazing. And as an entrepreneur to another entrepreneur, I I applaud you for you know finding something that you're interested in, seeing that there's you know, anybody could do it, but it takes a lot of time, took you a lot of time the first day that you sat down all those hours and started to think about this, and then you create something that the market will buy while still maintaining your other interests, your other realms in your life that bring you happiness, joy, obviously, financial remuneration, um, and satisfied patience. Let's talk about just so somebody it could be like me, like my wife will go, hey, do you know we have X number of points through this credit card? I go, No, should I use them? I don't know. Like, how does somebody how should somebody who's you know professional and probably has points, quote, lying around someplace, right? Start to think about organizing a spreadsheet or whatever it is that you have that you you now use to figure out okay, do I get this credit card? Do I fly this airline? Do I buy this box of cereal? I I don't know what it is. How do we start?
SPEAKER_00:We've got more coming up, but first, a quick break. Here's something we think you'll want to hear.
SPEAKER_01:If you were at the summit this past October, or if you missed it, we've put together complete summit notes for you at GLM Summitnotes.com. These aren't summaries, they're the exact strategies, quotes, frameworks, and action steps that the smartest firm owners in the room took home and are already implementing. And now we're taking all of that momentum straight into the 2026 GLM boot camps. Boot camp is where you stop consuming ideas and start implementing. So grab the summit notes at GLM SummitNotes.com. Then join us at bootcamp. Let's make 2026 the year your law firm stops being a job and starts becoming the life you actually want to live.
SPEAKER_00:All right, let's get back to the conversation.
SPEAKER_02:How do we start? Yeah, that's a great question. Especially, and to your point, especially for business owners, you could have hundreds of thousands or sometimes millions of points laying around and not know what to do with them. So starting with a trip, it's just like getting an Uber. To to know where you um, to know how much it's going to cost, know what you need, you have to know where you're going. And so I'll typically ask people to think about a goal that they have in mind, maybe a place that they have in mind, a destination. And I love to start with this free website called flightconnections.com. And I love this website. This is a great one for your for your listeners. Flightconnections.com, you go to it, you can put in your destination, and it will show you every airline that flies there and where they fly from. And what that does is it starts to teach you a little bit about that flexibility. Okay, I know these airlines fly to this destination, and I know they fly from these locations. And so typically I'm telling people if you have a destination in mind, you want to get to the continent that you're going to on points. You may have to add like a short flight, a cash pay flight. But usually once you get to the continent, those other flights that you need to add on, maybe an economy, they're much less expensive. What we're looking for are those long flights to knockout. So you use your flight connections, you figure out you're going to get to the continent you want to go to, and then you see what airlines there are. Now, many times there are going to be multiple international airlines that will service an area you want to go to. Our bank credit cards, our Amex, Chase, our Capital One, they have lots of international airline partners. And that's typically what we're going to be looking at to use to get to our destinations. And I'll tell people to start maybe with what's called a welcome offer. A welcome offer is where you open a credit card and you get a large number of points for doing a certain amount of spend within the first couple of months. That's called a welcome offer. Sometimes these welcome offers are 100,000 points, sometimes up to 300,000 points. We've seen offers on things like American Express. And that amount of points can really give you that flexibility where you can start looking at how to get to your destination. Another technique I like to use is Googling a simple phrase. And that's sweet spot award flights to blank to your destination. What that is going to do, all that again, all that information is out there on the internet, but you don't have to know the best award deals to get to your destination. It's already been posted. And so you're doing two things. You're figuring out how to get to your destination, and you're figuring out how to accumulate points in a very quick way. And that's usually through welcome offers. The interesting thing to know is that airlines these days, they're really just points banks. They actually make more from their loyalty programs than they do from flying people. And this helped them during COVID. They were able to leverage loyalty programs to actually get the, you know, loans from the government and stay afloat. So airlines sell their miles to credit card companies who in turn give it to consumers as rewards for spending on them. That's how they sell it.
SPEAKER_01:I had no idea.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:I had no idea. That sounds like magazines that make their money on selling and renting their subscription lists.
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_01:Kind of the same thing. You have X subscribers, but you can make 10X by selling the list to the next person who wants to sell to that group. That's interesting. No idea. It is.
SPEAKER_02:So once you understand that, you know, okay, airlines are making money because they're selling points to credit cards, credit cards are giving those to consumers to reward certain types of spend. On the other hand, airlines don't necessarily want every seat to be bookable with points, right? They would rather sell that seat. So they make money off their points and they make money off of selling the seat. And that can be frustrating for people starting out because they may look at a certain date and say, there's no awards available because airlines do not release awards for every open seat that you could buy with cash. So part of the game, you know, is accumulating your points with your spend and then looking for this award availability. And the good news is that it's getting easier because there are lots and lots of search tools, both free and paid, to find these award seats that airlines release. So we call it like releasing award space. Airlines may release when they open their calendar. So when they first open the schedule, they may reserve certain seats for points bookings. Those are international airlines like British Airways, Japan Airlines, Qatar, Cafe. They will typically release some award seats when they open their flight schedule. Many will release at different times of the year, and it's very random. It's not based on Tuesdays, it's not based on anything that we can predict. And it's getting more, you know, predictive through Generative AI. So it's it's less and less predicted by us, but airlines will also release seats throughout the year. And then some airlines will also release seats at the at the close into the schedule. I haven't sold this seat, so a week out I'm going to start releasing it to my loyalty members and they can book it with points. So again, finding that availability based on where you want to go can be a little bit of a challenge, especially on a fixed schedule. But with those flexible points, it builds in that flexibility for you so you can get to where you want to go. So I hope that I hope that made sense as a general overview of how it works.
SPEAKER_01:No, and and and great tips for, as you said, both both paid and free sites to go and start to look at this. So do you think like a beginner you have you have your course, we'll talk about that in a few minutes, but a beginner who sits down uh is often just like overwhelmed, I think. Is is the idea is the idea start and get a taste for how good this can be. Because oftentimes, you know, perfect is the enemy of the good, and people sit down and they spend way too many. They spend more hours at you know at the at their rate of what they could quote bill at than they save by using the points, right? So is the object really to start?
SPEAKER_02:It is. I would say even start with accumulation. Start with and it can be scary to open credit cards. And I I'm not saying you need to open 20 or 30 credit cards at once, but with a strategic way to open your credit cards, once you've accumulated the points, I think then it becomes a little bit easier to see your options for for using them. You might say, well, how do we how do we open cards or how do we not be scared about ruining our credit score? And and actually, this is another misconception. Some people are very worried about ruining their credit score by opening cards. Whereas one of the biggest factors in your credit score is what's called credit utilization. So how much credit has the bank extended you and how much of that are you actually using? As you open more cards, you're not going to be using more of that credit line, but your credit line is going to go up. So your utilization goes down. So in the long term, more cards actually increases your credit score. In the short term, you can expect a small dip of single digit points on your credit score from having an inquiry from the bank. But in the long term, your credit score does go up from having low credit utilization and of course always paying off your card on time. I think that goes without saying if you don't pay off your card and you improve interest, you negate any of the benefit of uh credit card points.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great reminder for people. So can you give us some examples of like beginner-friendly credit cards or programs where someone would who's just listening to this now and going, yeah, it makes sense. Like, all right, where do I look first?
SPEAKER_02:I think a couple simple cards. One program that I really like is the Capital One system. So Capital One venture cards, they have Venture, Venture X, and Venture X business. The Venture X business can be a fantastic card for business owners. It's two times points on all spend. And usually the welcome offer on the VentureX business, for example, is 150,000 points when you sign up. So you accumulate that number of points, and then every dollar you spend gets two times points, which is which is a great return. Two two points per dollar on all of your spend, again, for a business, which can be very, very expensive. When you open your car, then you can see there'll be different options for how you can use those points. Mostly we'll be looking at, again, transferring points to different airlines. They transfer to airlines like British Airways, Air France, Qatar, EVA, which is a Taiwanese airline, for example. These are just examples. And again, not to overwhelm everybody, but you can see that list of that flexibility of what those points can offer you. So that is a wonderful system to get started with. Another card that I recommend for, especially for renters, is the Built card. And Built was the first credit card to come on the scene. I think they started around 2021, offer points for paying rent. And it was no fee. You could pay your rent as if you were paying an ACH transfer to your landlord or through a check on the credit card. But you got points for that. And so this is the first time of seeing wow, people like students, people like residence trainees, your law students, your early out attorneys, man, you can get a return on probably one of your biggest expenses that you have. And so those are those are some cards that I I usually recommend starting with. There's, but think about when you're first starting, accumulating points as fast as possible. So looking for your best welcome offers for the amount of spend that you can make in the first three months. And that'll be such a good return. You'll start with a good amount and then you can start looking for trips that you want to book. I would say that from starting to your first points booking is going to be about 18 months to two years in advance for something big because that's just what it takes if you're not going crazy opening cards every other week. That's just what it takes for that accumulation.
SPEAKER_01:Is the um is the use of points to get like the premium level of the flying experience, is that smart, or are you more in the camp of just get me there and then I'll have fun wherever I'm going is going to be fun, whether I'm going to a safari or you know, visiting fine restaurants? Like, what is your view on that? Because the premium experience is cool at some of these long-haul air flights.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I go for the premium experience because at this point in my career, I've done thousands of surgeries, and my body hurts a lot of the time, sadly. But I I like to start my vacation right when it's starting. So I want to get to the airport, I want to lay down in a LIFLAT seat, and I want to be comfortable. So that way when I get to my destination, I'm not having to start with a massage because I've completely destroyed my neck.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. That's a good point. I I I look, I agree with you. At a certain level of experience and earnings and you know, helping people through your life. Yes, darn, it's like those premium experiences were made for you.
SPEAKER_02:It's not the right choice for everybody. Some people say, I want to use my points for the most experiences possible. So I'm going to just get there and then enjoy it. And that's the great thing about points. You can tailor it to your style, and it can also grow with you. Early on in my career, I would have never considered flying in a premium cabin. And now I Really don't want to consider flying long haul economy. So it can totally grow with you as you continue throughout your life, as your income changes, as your situation changes, and as your desires change for what you want out of it.
SPEAKER_01:Do you um do you speak mainly to the healthcare space? I mean, your inner your Instagram must be like probably all comers, but when you to the extent you're giving public talks, is it mainly to the to the your own profession?
SPEAKER_02:It's been a little all over the place. It's been to other points enthusiasts at points conferences. It's been at physician leadership and professional development conferences. So it's been a little bit all over the place. I think many people in advanced professional careers kind of resonate with the same concepts, and that is high spend that we want a high return on, and we need to have flexibility to block time off to prevent burnout. I think that's kind of the catch all for who it speaks to.
SPEAKER_01:And I had no idea there was such a thing as a point conference.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, you'd be surprised, and they're so fun. There's so much more fun than medical conferences that tend to start at 6 a.m. and um go all day and the points. Yeah, there's there are communities of points enthusiasts who get together in different settings, and it's been I've spoken at three. It's been really fun to participate in those.
SPEAKER_01:That is fun to be the guru of a really ultra narrow but deep uh niche. What real quickly, what are some of the mistakes that someone who's listening to this may go and r start running and um and then step in it? Like what are some of the mistakes that people, the beginners in particular, might make?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would say when you're starting out, avoid co-branded cards. And co-branded cards are credit cards that literally have the brand of something on it. It could be American Airlines, it could be Merritt, it could be Best Buy. Anything that has a brand on it is what's called a co-branded card. Why do we avoid co-branded cards? Well, the points that you earn from those cards are within the brand. So you may use those points and you may use some benefits from the cards, but once your points are in that system, they are stuck. You can't move them anywhere else. And we like that flexibility. So I would say avoid co-branded cards at first, really focus on the transferable currencies. And then don't be tempted by offers that you get that may say spend your points on Amazon gift cards or magazines or things like that. Yes, you can do that, but you're really going to get the highest return for your buck when you use those points for travel. Because remember, airlines and hotels are points banks that want your business. So we're going to get our highest return on travel. If you don't want to travel or you don't want to spend your points on travel, that's okay. Like get a get a good cash back credit card then. At least get some reward for your spending that's not stuck in a system you'll you'll never use.
SPEAKER_01:I can see why the um airlines want to co-brand then with MasterCard or Visa, right? Make you a customer who can't escape, perhaps. That's exactly right. Well, look, this has been wonderful. If people want to find out more about points, you your programs, Doctor, where should they go?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'm mostly on Instagram. I'm at Points and Milesdoc. I'm also pointsandmilesdoc.com. That's my website. There are a couple blog posts up there, and I do send out an email newsletter you can sign up for when I get to it. It's usually once or twice a month. It's not very spammy, I hope, because I don't get around to it all that much. But I try to provide a tip about a credit card, a booking I'm doing, and some kind of redemption that I would recommend. And that's also where you can find information about courses or conferences that I've spoken about in the past if you're ever interested in checking out those. I'll be at the Whitecoat Investor. I'll be so happy to meet you in person in spring. And I hope to see anybody else there who will be joining on as well.
SPEAKER_01:Is your uh is your points business a one-woman band, or do you have um a group of assistants? Or is it all like many of us, like it's you?
SPEAKER_02:It sure is, just me. It's yeah, I would consider it more of a hobby than uh a large income generator for me at this point, but but it's need to be famous for something.
SPEAKER_01:It's need to be famous for something outside of your space, right? Outside of your primary space, right? What's uh last last question? Uh any any cool trips that are in the planning or in the books now that you are going to uh you and your spouse are gonna take and um you're you're working on the points system?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. One of the one of my favorite trips we ever took was a tiger safari in northern India last February, where we flew in Qatar Q Suites to all the way to Delhi, went out to Ranthambore National Park and got to see tigers. And this company that we went with, they have two other properties in northwest India in Rajasthan, one on a big leopard preserve and one well out in the desert. And so we're going to go back in next year and check out their other properties and see some more animals. So it's all points there and back, and then spending cash on the ground with this company that has a lot of conservation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's awesome. Do you do your patients know that you're also the the Miles doctor or not? And the points doc or not?
SPEAKER_02:Not frequently, though sometimes I run into them online or even one at a points conference before. And it was so fun for us to learn that we shared this interest.
SPEAKER_01:Dr. Kelly Wright. Well, this has been fun because it's been outside of my box for sure. And again, it is neat to talk to people who are not only successful in their primary space, right, but who found something else interesting. Again, it can be athletics, it can be being a guru of a niche like you are. Uh it can be art or, you know, whatever. That's neat. Because, you know, our view is you live life big. You have no idea how many days you actually have. You might as well live them to your own happiness. And when you do that, you actually serve the world because all those people around you, you know, are happier because you're in it. You're you're creating jobs. You are, you know, more able, again, to uh to serve your patients. And yes, doing thousands of surgeries, that is got to be hard on the body, especially the work that you're doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And we know in our field there's really good data that tired and burnt-out doctors are less empathetic, have more complications, and even prescribe less pain medication for patients.
SPEAKER_01:So that's interesting. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It behooves you to have a doctor. If maybe we're not always accessible, but we have, you know, a setup where we have partners who are just somebody that has a good balance because when they're there, they're actually going to treat you better.
SPEAKER_01:Well, good for you. And this has been fabulous. I look forward. Sandy and I will be out in um in Las Vegas for the conference. And so we'll look forward to to meeting you and hearing more of your of your stories, and we'll learn something, and she'll be like so happy that she now knows what to maybe do better, more efficiently with all the points that we have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you guys look forward to it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Kelly.
SPEAKER_00:That's it for today's episode of the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where we're rewriting the rules of what it means to build a great law practice and a great life. If something sparked a new idea or gave you clarity, pass it on. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this with someone who's ready to think bigger. Want more tools, strategies, and stories from the trenches? Visit greatlegalmarketing.com or connect with Ben Glass and the team on LinkedIn. Keep building boldly. We'll see you next time.
