The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
How Phonely.AI is Changing the Game for Law Firms
What if your law firm could answer every call—day or night—without adding to your team?** Phonely.AI is redefining client communication by blending cutting-edge AI with a human touch. Imagine an AI receptionist that sounds natural, follows detailed workflows, and integrates seamlessly with your systems. How far can technology go in transforming your intake process? Join us as we explore the future of legal communication with Phonely.AI’s founders, Will Bodewes and Daniel Kovari. Could this be the solution your firm has been waiting for?
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
AI model is trying to predict what is coming next in that conversation, and so, at the same time as these large language models have gotten better, the same thing of transcription models, which is transcribing the text, and then voice generation models, which is actually creating the voice and saying that out loud those things have also gotten better at the same time, and so there became this like really cool opportunity where you could combine all of these different things together to create a human-like sounding voice, a real, very accurate transcription, and then a large language model that was able to interact with the person and then respond in real time on behalf of that. Now, once you have all those tools put together in one place, there's two things that become very important. The first thing is making sure that your large language models actually say the right thing, because these large language models are kind of a black box, which means they're predictors, so we don't know how they predict their outcome, but we do know that they're pretty good at predicting, you know, repeatable, reliable information.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, this is Ben Glass. Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where every episode I get to interview people inside or outside of legal who are making a ding in the world. Today it's going to be a great conversation. Two interesting young entrepreneurs and, as kind of a scary and cool technology I have, will Bodevis and Daniel Kovari. The company is Fonlyai. I met Daniel when I was speaking out in Salt Lake several months ago at NiftyCon or Nifty's law marketing conference, and we talked a little bit about this product, and since then I have seen a number of products that are emerging where the phone is being answered by artificial intelligence and guys. Every time I hear this it sounds so real and getting so much better that it's scary. So I wanted to get you on the program to talk a little bit about the technology in general and then your product specifically. So thanks for carving out some time and being with us today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks so much. We're super excited to be on here. How did you?
Speaker 3:guys get here, Because I know you each have varied backgrounds, but I think you both left PhDs in AI, so you're very, very smart, it sounds like. But how did you find this space to whatever we want to call it? You know? Ai receptionist, AI intake. Tell us a little bit about that journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was doing research in the PhD, like you mentioned, was trying to understand, like these large language models, and trying to understand what were the limitations and what they could be used for.
Speaker 1:And basically, you know, as I was going through doing this research, I was realizing that there's a lot of potential opportunities in creating these LLMs that can actually perform real business actions on behalf of businesses.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I thought was the most useful place for this was by being able to answer the phone. And my dad, he, was a small business owner and one of the biggest challenges that he faced was staffing, especially around just getting people to answer the phone. And so we started working on this problem like a year and a half ago or so when we were in our PhDs, and then, since that point, we've had some pretty fortunate attraction we were accepted into Y Combinator's accelerator program, which, if you don't know, them the top accelerator program in the world. We've continued to scale. We're in multiple different countries, we've scaled across businesses that answer millions of phone calls per month, and we're just here to try to help basically make people's lives easier by automating the tasks that can be automated and let people do the tasks that we enjoy doing, which is bringing value to our clients and our customers, and to the world.
Speaker 3:So do you have investors and stuff? Yeah absolutely, and who else is in the team?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've got a team of about 10 so far, so we're majority developers, so we're just spending a lot of our time honestly calling our voice AI agents, talking to them, trying to see what we can do to make them sound more human-like, but additionally, also how can we integrate with different softwares to really be able to perform a lot of the same actions that people are doing over the phone.
Speaker 3:In the solo and small law firm market. The reception team, the intake team, the sales team whatever you want to call it is a really big challenge. It's relatively easy today to go out and find a web developer who can put up a good website, to work with partners in pay-per-click or other digital advertising, in traditional advertising, to do all of the things that are really marketing to make the phone ring. It is a challenge in these firms to get that phone answered appropriately with human beings and the way, in case you didn't know, like most small firms are set up, they do not have dedicated sales and intake teams. The call rolls to the next available person and so, as you can imagine, the experience is oftentimes not stellar. Those firms that focus on getting someone in that seat who knows what they're doing training that person and monitoring and retraining, and monitoring and retraining, and monitoring and retraining they tend to do really well.
Speaker 3:So then you layer on artificial intelligence AI the buzzword for the last at least 24 months, where lawyers are just starting to wrap their arms around the whole thing. Like so many lawyers, they run from all of AI because they've only heard bad stuff about people who have hallucinating citations in their legal briefs. People like us in the great legal marketing tribe are embracing as much AI as we can to say how can we make our lives better? So talk to us a little bit about generally, because I would think this would be scary for lawyers. All right, I can train Sally, but now I'm going to have a machine that answers. Let's talk about the technology generally. This is obviously being used by your clients in different industries around the world. That's interesting. We'll talk about that, but how does this even work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you touched on a few things that I think people hear. A lot of buzzwords does this even work? Yeah, you touched on a few things that I think people hear a lot of buzzwords but don't really fully understand what's going on behind that.
Speaker 1:And when we hear words like hallucination and stuff like that, like what does that actually mean? You know how good are these LLMs and what's actually going on the backend. So maybe I'll take a little bit of a spree where I kind of explain, like really, what we are doing so that you can understand better, of, like, how all voice AI is working today and what these large language models limitations are and how they work. So, essentially, if we back up a little bit, the AI spaces became really exciting recently because of the advent of large language models, which you may know of as ChatGPT, right, but there's a series of other providers that are doing a similar thing to making these essentially large language models which you can input text and then that text is going to output some sort of response. Now, if we go really deep, that's called the next token predictor, which is not super important, but essentially, if you think about what's happening, is that AI model is trying to predict what is coming next in that conversation. And so, at the same time as these large language models have gotten better, the same thing of transcription models, which is transcribing the text, and then voice generation models, which is actually creating the voice and saying that out loud. Those things have also gotten better at the same time, and so there became this like really cool opportunity where you could combine all of these different things together to create a human like sounding voice, a real, very accurate transcription, and then a large language model that was able to interact with the person and then respond in real time on behalf of that.
Speaker 1:Now, once you have all those tools like put together in one place, there's two things that become very important. The first thing is making sure that your large language models actually say the right thing, because these large language models are kind of a black box, which means they're predictors, so we don't know how they predict their outcome, but we do know that they're pretty good at predicting you know repeatable, reliable information their outcome, but we do know that they're pretty good at predicting repeatable, reliable information. And so one of the things that we've done at Phonely is we've been able to break down that process a lot in what we call our workflows builder, but it's essentially requiring the agent or the LLM to complete a series of tasks. So this might be grab the customer's name, grab the customer's email, the things that you already know, that you already train your receptionist on. So we go through this process where we build out a template and we train your, you know, ai agent or AI receptionist on that. We've got a lot of different templates, you know in that business and then we can do things like simulate a conversation to reduce, like to guard against hallucination.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that we're seeing is that breaking these out into these multi-step processes where we go through and it's somewhat called agent becomes very important. And then the second thing that becomes very important is being able to integrate software in real time, because a lot of the times people don't just want their phone answered. You need your phone answer, you need to have an email sent, you need to have some integration to book the person in, you need to check some information with the computer, and so that's the other piece that I think becomes really important. When you want to add voice AI into your offer, you don't just want it to be a voice-based chatbot, you want it to actually perform real-time action, and the way that does is through a series of steps that we can define and then execute on behalf.
Speaker 3:So that was a mouthful Yep and I would tell you scary to lawyers, yeah, at this point, as we're recording this late in 2024, how deep you are into the legal market.
Speaker 1:Do you have firms on this in the legal market? Yeah, we do. We've got a few that we work with. We've also been developing templates out. The reason why templates are really valuable is because they're kind of like we can think of it as like quote, unquote, hallucination proof. So the agent will follow these series of templates and then. So, essentially, if you're a small legal firm and you're looking to get up and running, we probably already have some sort of template that you can just plug and play and then it will do what you would need to do answer the phone transfer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Because while you were talking about the technology, I was thinking well, hell, most law firms don't even have in live, human form, what you're describing in terms of a script, a process. I mean, they just don't. So it's good to know you have templates and understanding that as we move into 2025, like things are developing at light speed, but in legal Will Indiana, like who would this be good for right now? Like of the clients of the law firms that you're serving now, what type of law firm is saying, oh my gosh, I wish I'd known you guys five years ago. This is awesome. Who is that avatar for today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so really we think of ourselves as law firms. It's easiest if they have a streamlined process and answer a lot of calls, because what we're seeing is you'll save between 50 and 70% of your legal intake costs, if not more, using a voice AI system like some of the ones that we've developed. So that would be an ideal customer somebody who's answering a lot of calls, a lot of phones. That being said, we have worked with businesses down to one person, one person just getting started up to large enterprises. So we are pretty flexible and I always have a special place in my heart because my dad was a small business owner for people that have maybe one or two people working there that are looking to get their phone automated. So we can run the gambit, but a perfect customer would be somebody looking to cut about 50% to 70% off of their phone bills.
Speaker 3:Typical consumer-facing law firm. Let's just say they're in the family law space and they're doing advertising. They're getting calls about divorce. I need a divorce. I have questions about separation. I have questions about child support. Need a divorce. I have questions about separation. I have questions about child support. How far down that conversation can the software go these days? In other words, is it used mainly to sort and sift and let's book an appointment with a real person, with a human being, or can it go deeper at this point? Or is it even designed to go deeper?
Speaker 1:The way that we usually do it is we think of it as like more of the receptionist or the phone agent augmentation, rather than like the legal supplementation, like we can define it and we can create routes and roles and knowledge bases that we can put the information in there to answer some questions about it. But what we really like to say is sometimes this information requires other background information or other things that you know really well that the AI model may not be trained to do. While it can be trained, it can be get up and running to do that. We usually find that if it's something that would be billable for a legal team or somebody like that, that's usually something better handled by a lawyer themselves.
Speaker 3:Under the current models and the templates that you're setting up, does the AI agent reveal itself? You're speaking to AI Ben and this is what I can do and happy to help you. I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so most of our customers choose not to. There are a few. There's some regulations in the works that are kind of dealing around what is the best way to go forward, but a lot of our customers end up not disclosing that it's an AI. Some of them do, and I think right now we're at this phase where everyone is used to hearing AI and being like, if they think it's like this IVR system and you all just like press zero to get to a person, and I think that we're starting to enter into an age where that's not going to be the case anymore and people are going to start, you know, being completely comfortable having a phone answer by AI, because it's going to be able to do pretty much everything that the person would be able to do over the phone book in that appointment, booking, that meeting actually resolve their problems, whereas the IVR system they are just not that good at that.
Speaker 3:No, they're horrible, and so that's. I mean, most of them are. If you want to speak in English, press one or say, yes, you're screaming at the phone because it doesn't understand you, and so what's the difference I guess technology wise between these old? You said IVR. What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What does the IVR mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, IVR system? I don't know actually.
Speaker 3:Interactive voice response or something. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, instant voice response. I think that's what it is. That's what it is, but anyways. So the IVR systems, they're old code logic based right. So that's why we always think of the press one for this, press two for this. They use a robotic voice and they're not using the power of large language models, which means that they only have a series of paths that you can do. So to create that IVR system, you basically have to build this really long and complicated flow of all the possible different options and you can only go in one direction. So you can only go here to here, here there, and it has no understanding or comprehension of the flow as a whole, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Well, no, it does make sense. It often ends in a disconnect. Yeah, yeah, it gets crazy. All right. So today, if a law firm small law firm two to five lawyers serving the consumer market in some space was interested, talk to us a little bit about what the onboarding process or the development of the template for Ben Glass Law what does that actually involve? And then we'll talk a little bit about your program lawyers who are interested in exploring this further. This is how we work. We do quarterly contracts, monthly contracts, whatever, but lawyers always we in exploring this further. This is how we work. We do quarterly contracts, monthly contracts, whatever, but lawyers always. We get pitched a lot, and the typical LinkedIn pitch is I want to steal 15 minutes of your time to tell you how good I am, which is not a very interesting pitch to someone who's very busy. Our members are busy, so let's shortcut that a little bit and talk about what that process onboarding process and working with you and your team what that would actually feel like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So. We kind of have a few different plans to cover different types of industries or segments. So one of them is we think of it as like you have more time than you have money, you're a little bit tech savvy and you're very small and you just want to get something up and running that can maybe, you know, handle your support. So one we would just use an existing template that we already have. You can start for like a hundred bucks a month and it's an existing template. You can modify it if you need to, but majority of the time it's just plug and play. You get a phone number, you forward your phone and then you can answer those calls that way. So that's the very basic approach.
Speaker 1:Now if you're answering, like you know we think of as like about a thousand or two calls a month or more, then you wanted to like look to scale up. Then essentially what you do is you work with one of our teams. So we've got internal consultants on our team that basically just build out these workflows full time so we can look at your old existing call recordings, we can take those recordings and recordings and we can say, okay, let's work on building a flow out from that. If you have existing scripting, we can go through and we'll build it. And so we run through this process where we think of it as you know initial build, you guys have a test, we run through our own simulation testing and then we would essentially go live with a custom flow that was built for you, that was going to be able to handle your questions at much better than potentially what a template could do. And if you didn't want to end up building it out yourself, and what is your initial agreement?
Speaker 3:You can disclose or not disclose pricing. I'm sure it's going to be different, but what does that agreement look like? What are the lawyers in terms of time anyway, time and energy signing up for?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. In terms of like pricing, we think about it. A lot of it ends up being price per minute and if there's any like special integrations that need to be done. But the price per minute for us it scales from, you know, 5 cents a minute up to 20 cents a minute. Those are kind of the price range based upon what volume you're hitting. And then in terms of like a initial time commitment for them, it's going to probably be a couple of calls. We usually like to get it done in about three 30 minute calls, where the first call is the initial flow build out, the second one is the test and if there's any modifications, then third is like going over what that looks like and then end up going live. So about an hour and a half of your time or somebody from your team's time to get it set up, get it up and running, and then we'll work on continuously testing and improving and then if there's any feedback that you need, you can always just share that with us and we can modify.
Speaker 3:That's amazing, an amazingly short investment of time. It strikes me that one of the ways law firms might benefit from this is in the after hours, right? So our most accomplished firms, as I said, have great, trained, audited, in-house sales teams and folks answering the phone, but then, and while there are a lot of quality live receptionists for after hours, the quality 100% always drops off. I'm not saying it drops off 100%, but the quality always drops off. They're answering for tens or hundreds of law firms in the middle of the night. So it strikes me that testing this, trying it out at nights and weekends, would be a space. Is your program set up to be able to do that? Turn the AI agent on and off.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So after hours is definitely a pretty big and pretty great use case for our already existing clients as well. I would mention two other as well. One of them is there's definitely peak times during the day as well when, like, a lot of calls come in and if no one can handle that call, it usually goes out to our AI because it's able to answer like a million concurrent calls, and when that comes in it's much better, even if it's like daytime, not only like after hours during peak times. It is really well to use this.
Speaker 4:And one of the other use cases that we've seen with some of our partners is that there are projects or there are firms that, for instance, approximately 70 to 80% of their calls get disqualified within the first minute or minute and a half of the call, using AI for that as like a front end of basically, okay, let's go through the qualification and then the company can decide if it wants to use the AI for the whole qualification process, the legal intake throughout, or if they want to like use it as a sort of triage and transfer it out to like a specific subject matter expert. Whichever way they want to go, absolutely perfectly does, but of course, at the front end, using AI to disqualify the calls that might not be useful, and maybe transferring those out to a different firm makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:And I assume we can teach it to deal with folks who are cold calling us to sell. So you mentioned and I saw some information on your website about integration right, because every accomplished firm these days is using some sort of case management, intake management, lead tracking software. Of course, the stuff I saw on the website looked pretty interesting Like yes and yes, we're filling in your own forms on whatever case tracking intake tracking software. Is that right? Did I see that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, we have a number of integrations that we already support, and then if you need a custom one, we can definitely implement that. The process is relatively simple for us to be able to just essentially take the information that we're having in Phonely the transcripts, the call recordings, ai summaries, analytics, anything that you'd want and we can send that over to your CRM. So it actually becomes like you get a few things built into one.
Speaker 3:You get something answering the phone transcribing all your conversations, conversations, doing AI summaries, sending that to wherever you need them and then just providing analytics on top of it. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. Can you all tell us a story or give us a use? What's the most complex use scenario? You have a company running on. It could be inside or outside of legal. In other words, again it goes back to my original question, like how deep down the tree of answering an initial call are some of these companies going?
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably the biggest one that we had was we had 160 question legal intake that we were able to run through. So in the legal space that was a big one. We actually had to modify parts of our architecture to be able to handle that, because it was a big customer and it was pretty important to be able to answer that accurately. So that's probably the biggest one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would be huge. So that sounds like a firm that knows what they're doing, already has a bunch of humans probably some of them out of country answering the phones and they're looking to test and then upgrade the user experience, in other words, the potential client experience here, because the way the case is accepted or not, we still want the caller to have had a reasonably good, if not excellent, experience with the law firm. Hey guys, this is Ben. If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts you should know that my son, brian, and I built a tribe of like-minded lawyers who are living lives of their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice. We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full-time practicing attorneys. Check us out at greatlegalmarketingcom.
Speaker 3:What do you think is next in 2025? Either in AI generally and legal. This whole voice thing is amazing and I have seen some examples and heard and listened to. Oh my, like it's coming faster than we can imagine, but we're not in the space you all are In 2025, like dream. What are some of the things that you think lawyers may see and be able to use in the artificial intelligence space, even if it's not voice? That we, the lawyers, aren't even thinking about yet?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I see a lot coming through Y Combinator and a lot of these startups that are coming out of Silicon Valley is stuff around automating and augmenting a lot of the boring tasks. So a lot of like billing automation, a lot of phone support, email, like all those types of things that we really don't like doing, and we either, you know, if we are a small business, we outsource that, or we do it ourselves, or, for a larger business, we outsource it to somewhere else. So a lot of those operations are getting, you know, being completely handled by AI. And then, if we want to dive into, like, the technical things that are happening, we're seeing a lot of emphasis into what's called AI agents, and so these agents are essentially multi-step LLM processes, which is a little complicated, but it allows them to create more, to accomplish more work than essentially just like one chat, gbt or one completion code alone. So it's something that we've been building in as well, but it's becoming more and more relevant.
Speaker 3:That's very cool and, you're right, it is more complicated. But, again, there are a subset of lawyers in our market who are all over this and who are trying to at least stay at the forefront of the wave, because, at the end of the day, what it does is it frees up lawyers to do what they were born to do, which is to think strategically about their business and think strategically about their client and the problem they're trying to solve or the opportunity they're trying to exploit. And I'm an old guy. I think we're living in amazing, freaking amazing times in terms of what technology is delivering to us, and I live through the birth of the internet, the advent of making videos easier for lawyers to do, online chat widgets, like. I've seen a lot of stuff, but this last 24 months has been absolutely amazing. Well, I assume, do you guys get around to conferences? Do you have a conference schedule for 2025?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we've got a big one Non-stop flying around, basically, yeah yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:Do you go to National Trial Lawyers Business of Law? It's in Miami end of January. That'll be a big one.
Speaker 1:I don't know if we're on that one. Yeah, maybe we'll have to make a last-minute trip over there, daniel, yeah yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Miami's a cool place and a jam area. So look guys, will and Daniel, anybody who's listening to this who would like to take another step or at least explore, give this thing a test run, hear and feel what it sounds like. What should they do next?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you can visit our website, which is wwwphoneleyai that's P-H-O-N-E-L-Yai. You can hover there. I'd recommend just like having a quick chat with somebody from the team to just understand your use case a little bit. You can also get started for yourself, completely for free. Play around, create your own voice AI agent. But again, we'd be happy to get you started and point you in the right direction to make your phone problems go away.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. Is phoneai's phones answered by one of your agents?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we have our AI agent that does it, and then it'll transfer over to one of us if we need to.
Speaker 3:We could test it right there. Daniel and Will, it's great to talk to you. I'm just curious and we talked a little bit about your backgrounds what else have both of you done in life to get to here? Because you've taken a big, bold move? Y Combinator is a big deal. You're playing against a lot of really big money, probably Playing against a lot of really big money, probably. I don't know how much you have raised, but it's all such an interesting world that most of us lawyers aren't in. So I'm just curious about that one more time, where each of you have been in your life to get to here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for me, I've done a few different random things. When I was younger, I used to be a pretty good like ultra endurance athlete. I held records for biking across the United States. I was the youngest person to bike across the US in a race. I did it in 17 days. I was a skier in college, so I competed at the NCAA championships doing that.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, I was getting my PhD doing artificial intelligence research, which is what really led me into this, and I've always been one for just exploring. You know, like what is the maximum that you can do, and you know, we know that there's a lot of money out there. It's a really competitive space. But the things that get me excited is to get out there every day, go and try and know that you're really solving a problem for businesses that want it to be solved. And I think about this a lot, where I'm like with AI and with what we're building. It's like we allow the robotic tasks to be done by AI and so by AI and so that humans can do more of what brings them joy or fulfills them. So that's what gets me excited, daniel has got his own.
Speaker 3:Yeah, daniel, what about you, buddy?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm a little bit on the random side as well. During my junior years under 18, I was actually like a top 50 golfer in my age group in the world. So I played together with like Justin Thomas and the guys played at like the the junior invitation in the Sage Valley and did a few things over there, went to school in like division one in the states as well, and then, like starting my professional career, I was in mergers and acquisitions. Then I started my MBA at Imperial College London. Not knowing too much about risk, I decided to not pursue MNA and my MBA but actually drop out from my MBA to help build valuable things in the world which I think are, like you know, really actually valuable to the end user.
Speaker 3:Very good. So, folks who are listening it's funlyai P-H-O-N-E-L-Yai, will and Daniel, thanks for carving out some time to be with us today.
Speaker 4:That was awesome, thank you yeah thanks so much Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, ben. If you like what you just heard on the Renegade Lawyer podcast, you may be a perfect fit for the great legal marketing community. Law firm owners across the country are becoming heroes to their families and icons in their communities. They've gone renegade by rejecting the status quo of the legal profession so they can deliver high quality legal services coupled with top-notch customer service to clients who pay, stay and refer. Learn more at greatlegalmarketingcom. That's greatlegalmarketingcom.
