The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Lawyers Should be Running Towards, Not Away from, AI
In this episode of The Renegade Lawyer Podcast, explore the transformative power of AI in the legal field with Jeremy Gottlieb of Veritec. Discover how AI is revolutionizing document management and medical chronologies, saving lawyers time and enhancing efficiency. Jeremy shares his journey from oil and gas to legal tech, offering insights into the future of AI in law.
Tune in for a fascinating discussion on innovation, technology, and the future of legal practice.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
With AI being where it's at, I think we can help a tremendous amount of firms and help level the playing field for even the smallest firms. You can take advantage of some of the best technology that's out there and really compete on a much larger scale. So I think that's what's really exciting for us is that we're in the early stages of really big improvements across the board. But AI is not, at the end of the day, going to replace people. Today, it's more of taking that one person and 10x-ing, 20x-ing their capabilities and streamlining the workflows, and so that's where we see, especially with litigation firms, their fixed fee or contingency-based billing, and so their time is super valuable for them, so every minute that they can focus on revenue generation and value activities.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. This is Ben Welcome back to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast. As our listeners know, I get to talk to people inside and outside legal every episode who are making a ding in the world. And today's going to be neat because we're going to talk about one of my really favorite subjects, which is AI. Got Jeremy Gottlieb here.
Speaker 3:Veritech and his company is working on some really cool stuff, but I was telling Jeremy before we went live, there seem to be two kinds of lawyers, at least in the small and small firm market, and two kinds of seminars about AI.
Speaker 3:There's the generalized bar seminar, which is come and we're going to warn you about the 58 things you shouldn't be doing with AI, because the only thing you can do with AI is fake research on free chat, gpt and then there's this whole other group of lawyers that the first group of lawyers, jeremy they don't even know exist and we sit around every single day going, huh, I wonder if there's a product or a way to use AI to make what we just did go faster or more efficiently. I just took a deposition this morning telling Jeremy it was a lot of documents. I had not looked in the file a long time and I sat down and with chat GBT and really just talked to it for a week not the whole week, but many hours and developed outlines and chronologies and deposition questions as though I was chatting with a human being. So this is great. We're recording this on a Friday afternoon in August.
Speaker 1:Jeremy, welcome to the program man, thanks for having me on. I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker 3:This is a really cool space. We have a mantra here at the firm. It's like we're no longer buying annual subscriptions to anything AI, because as soon as we do, in about 64 days, somebody else has a better product. And we're a small firm about 22 people on the roof and we are using what we have discovered, I think, and there's some really neat technologies out there. But talk first a little bit about your background, because you do not come from the legal space and you're not an attorney, I think, and you have a golf simulator in your home office, which is really neat sitting behind you. So tell us a little bit about your background my friend Sure.
Speaker 1:So I started in the oil and gas space. I ran the finance team at an oil and gas company for seven years and then we sold for over a billion dollars to a publicly traded company. I then moved into the technology space. In oil and gas we raised over $100 million, have a very successful company still sitting on the board of that company, but Exxon and very other large companies use our system that we built out in the energy space to go ahead and run their business. It was a great experience and that was the first foray into the technology side of things. I did that for five and a half years, learned how to build the software from scratch and then go ahead and scale the business to hundreds of clients in a very quick period of time. I had a lot of great investors and folks that we hired along the way to help us build a company and then had the luxury of taking some time off to decompress with the four kiddos at home but then got the itch for entrepreneurship all over again.
Speaker 1:So my wife is a former prosecutor and my partner was working on some technology for litigation firms and we identified the legal space really as an underserved market and also in the early innings of technology renaissance that I think is happening, and in the last one or two months, some pretty big financings that have come in, with Clio raising a ton of money and same with Filevine.
Speaker 1:So I think the legal space has always been an overlooked space from technology perspective, and so with AI being where it's at, I think we can help a tremendous amount of firms and help level the playing field for even the smallest firms. You can take advantage of some of the best technology that's out there and really compete on a much larger scale. So I think that's what's really exciting for us is that we're in the early stages of really big improvements across the board. But AI is not, at the end of the day, going to replace people. Today it's more of taking that one person and 10x-ing, 20x-ing their capabilities and streamlining the workflows, and so that's where we see, especially with litigation firms, their fixed fee or contingency-based billing, and so their time is super valuable for them. So every minute that they can focus on revenue generation and value added activities versus just the admin work is a tremendous amount of leverage that they can put into their business.
Speaker 3:Look. So you've identified a prime market with a challenge, really, because you're right, legal has always been slow to adopt technology. Because, my opinion is, the type of brain that gets you qualified, gets you through law school and helps you get through the bar exam is not the type of brain that you have been working with, sounds like most of your life, which is the open architecture. Wow, what if we could do this type brain? Now the folks that, by and large, listen to this podcast are the ones who are going, okay, wow, that's interesting, let's go try it, let's see if we can break it, let's see if we can improve it, all that. But I'm curious now because you worked in some major corporations and doing innovative things, even within major, well-funded oil companies, right, what does it look like inside Idea creation? And this company has 100,000 employees, probably, and you see something and you try to get the next level above you to accept an idea, like I've never been in that boardroom. What does that feel?
Speaker 1:like Everything comes down to a point of how much value we're adding. What are the pains that we're solving that are being experienced at the firm? Oil and gas is actually very similar to the legal space. Industrial companies are quite slow to change from a technology perspective. In general, the analogy to litigation space and the legal space is quite similar. It's a very conservative mindset. You have to make sure what you're delivering is valuable but also auditable, and what we built at ComboCurve was used for SEC reserve reporting and is used for SEC reserve reporting.
Speaker 1:Everything we've done and that mindset that I have around auditability and visibility for what the AI models are doing has transferred over to what we're doing at Veritech, which is making sure everything we do is auditable.
Speaker 1:It's easy to see how we did it, change it very quickly and then, if there's a confidence interval that's got a problem, if we have confidence intervals that we can go ahead and extract out and demonstrate on the front end of the screen so the attorneys can say, oh, the model wasn't super confident for this line item, I need to go take a look at it.
Speaker 1:All of this helps translate to solving a pain problem that a specific company has so internally in the oil and gas space at the large companies when you 80,000 wells, maintaining them from a production forecasting perspective. I was in the oil and gas space for a very long period of time and so I understood a lot of the day-to-day pain points that reservoir engineers were having. But they're also very conservative. So you have to deliver a product that 10x's their workflow and provides immediate value at time zero, and that's what we did and that's helped. Also a shift into the litigation space, which is add value really quickly, without a lot of client lift, and then give them an auditable platform so they can go ahead and do their work and streamline the workflows.
Speaker 3:Now I'm really curious about your younger years actually because you are very smart and so, yeah, and part of what I do is I help young people just discern career paths and even college and postgraduate education paths. So what did you study in college? And then tell us a little bit about how you found the space that you found because you worked many years in oil and gas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my background entrepreneurship goes back all the way till when I was much younger, so when I was 12, 13, I had a dog walking business and I was making 500 bucks a week in the summertime.
Speaker 1:And as a kid. That's a tremendous amount of money and I always had the entrepreneurship itch. I was working at Morgan Stanley. I was fortunate to get an internship at Morgan Stanley at 15 and started working in different companies, both in finance and accounting. So I always knew I wanted to be in finance and accounting since I was about five years old and you could ask anybody I just was laser focused on that front. So I went to UT Austin, hookham Horns. I love our school, a great program, got a bachelor's and master's in finance and accounting. I have my CPA license. I'm a CFA charterholder so I wanted to get a broad base of experience. I did that going and started working at EY in the transaction team. So we did M&A work. I did a bit of audit work and even some tax work to help out in valuation. So I got a vast amount of experiencing the different types of transactions, got to understand how companies work really quickly.
Speaker 1:And after passing my CFA charter I went to work at a hedge fund for a brief period of time and that's where I really learned that anything is possible. So I worked at the hedge fund. I was basically taking PhD research and going ahead and seeing whether it made sense to build trading models off of it, doing pair tradings with developers, and that's when I got my first taste of what it looked like to work with developers and how we could create value doing that together. So after that brief stint at the hedge fund, I managed a half a billion dollar short portfolio with one or two other people. I moved back into the oil and gas role and led the finance team for seven years at DeepGolf Energy before we went ahead and exited to Cosmos Energy.
Speaker 1:So that was a great experience. I had a great mentor actually two mentors at the company who really went on the legal side, so the chief legal officer really mentored me. I spent a lot of time negotiating all of our credit facilities, working with V&E and all of our legal team on that front. So I have a lot of contract negotiation experience, both on the financing side of things and also when I started ComboCurve I did all of our licensing agreements and working with our attorneys on financing and pretty much anything legal related. So I spent more time. I feel like I should have an honorary legal degree after some of the experience I got, and I did get into law school. I took the LSAT. I did get into law school. I was looking at the relative cost of law school versus what I was able to do outside of it.
Speaker 3:There probably is some accelerated programs somewhere in the United States where you can take your bank of experience and take a few classes and boom, we'll get you that law degree and you're turning 40. So you have packed an amazing amount of experience and hanging out with unbelievably smart people in your 20 years of professional life. So good for you. Smart people in your 20 years of professional life, so good for you. Let's talk a little bit about Veritech, because before we went live, you told me about a couple of products that you guys are introducing to the market. So let's talk about the problems that you are trying to help lawyers and law firms solve, what they do, and then we'll talk about how anyone who's listening can maybe come and have a look or the next level chat with you all.
Speaker 1:Two products we have. One is called FileFlow and the challenges we see a lot these days. There's an admin or paralegal or multiple people managing documents at the company, whether it's intake documents, core documents coming in from e-file, faxes, mail. It's just getting inundated with documents and you have to have people just pushing it to different spots within an organization, extracting data off of it, and a lot of times they can't find something during trial. They're trying to find a document and they can't get to it, and so that's time is of the essence.
Speaker 1:So we automate that process AI and then the custom rules that they have in order to go ahead and take everything from their emails, from the faxes, from the mail and courts and file it automatically in their case management system or in box or Dropbox or wherever they store all their files, and then everything is searchable, they can query it. It's OCR, so they have a unified database of everything as well, along with that getting automated. So there's generally a dedicated person or two at least small to midsize firm, and for solo practitioners, they're doing that on their own and really not as focused on being able to generate the revenue. So all of it about freeing up time and maximizing their time on the value add activities. So that's the first one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, hey guys, this is Ben. If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast. No-transcript. Check us out at greatlittlemarketingcom.
Speaker 3:So let's just talk about that for a minute, because as technologically adapt as many lawyers, I think, in the sole and small firm market are becoming, and with new case management technologies every six months and every case management technology trying to add all the features it just saw in the newly released version from a competitor, there's a lot of information flow. I've been practicing for a little bit longer than you've been alive, okay. So I go back to pre-fax machine. I can remember when the first fax was installed in our office, we typed on typewriters with carbon paper. You probably have never seen carbon paper in your life. That's okay.
Speaker 3:And today, the good news, bad news is, especially with so much electronic right, electronic filing, electronic delivery of medical records there's this process of okay, it just came in, that's awesome, it came in quick and it came in electronically. And then people are printing it out, yep, and then people are spending time reading it and then because I know your other product deals with medical chronologies live human beings are reading the records and still typing out chronologies, which seems slow. Yeah, hats off to you for this. You mentioned solo practitioners. Is the product. Do you think file flow to a point where solo and small firms ought to be looking at this point, where solo and small firms ought to be looking at this, and by that I mean in terms of pricing, in terms of the ease or dis-ease of onboarding. Where are we? Because these things take time to develop.
Speaker 1:Sure, we have clients using it right now For a solo practitioner. Definitely. Pricing is always flexible between the solo practitioner. We understand the budget constraints there, so we are able to work with everybody from the solo all the way up to larger firms, and the solo firms generally have smaller volumes. The pricing also compensates for that.
Speaker 1:There is an onboarding component to it. We can generally get it done in a few weeks, but we already have our APIs written for Filevine and a bunch of other systems so we can automatically hook into the system. As long as they have the way they want to go ahead and send the documents, we can automate the creation of the rules from their system ourselves. But if they also have ways that they want to do things, we can automatically go ahead and do a sweep of their system and see how they actually filing things. So we came up with a proprietary method to go ahead and accelerate that process. The goal is to have onboardings done in just a matter of a few days or even 24 hours, but we're pretty close in terms of some of the technology that we've deployed in order to automate that process.
Speaker 1:I do think everybody should be looking at the best ways to maximize their time, so it just depends on what their needs are. But we've got a great process. The tool's already available, it's in full scale mode and I'm excited mostly because we've got the tools and we have a very open architecture in order to optimize. You mentioned, every week there's a new model that comes out right. We have our architecture set up in a way that we can always optimize and improve what we want to do, because we can swap in and out. I would call it technology agnostic and that's how I wanted to set up our system. We want to improve enterprise workflows for litigation firms, but we also don't want to be tied to any specific product as well right, because there's always going to be mass improvements.
Speaker 3:So we've set our system up in a way that we can swap in and out very quickly up in a way that we can swap in and out very quickly and then, once FileFlow is installed and the team is onboarded, what does it actually look and feel like? So even, for example, okay, in the federal court system or in many state court systems, judge issues an order. It comes down electronically how that document really gets into the system. And then, importantly, how do the lawyers or the paralegal know? Order just came out setting a schedule.
Speaker 1:There will be an email that's initiated from that and there's two routes. If it's got the attachment in it, we'll pull that in, or we log into the e-file pacer system ourselves. You would input your credentials in our screen. We have a place to do that so we can pull the information in Once that document comes in. We have a screen that shows all the documents that have been processed, whether they're emails, e-file, pacer, fax, because the faxes will go to service email and same with the mail documents that are scanned in. So we have one system that you log into the screen you'll see where it's located and then it shows you the directory where it's been sent to. So it's a very streamlined process, fully automated.
Speaker 1:Now, not everything is 100%.
Speaker 1:Usually for file flow, if it's 2% or 3% of the time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the data is not clean in their system, so they don't have a case number in their file somewhere and if there's not a way to match it, it will flag it for you and it will say, hey, this document was not matched, and so we go ahead and flag it and somebody will log into the system and push it to there. And if anybody says anything is 100% in AI that's just not possible. But we have a very good track record and ability to go ahead and match everything up. A lot of it is from a data cleaning perspective that we've seen. That's probably one of the biggest things that we start with is like making sure the data is nice and clean, either in the case management system or the Dropbox system, so they have a scalable process, because if you don't have a scalable process, it's impossible to go ahead and implement any technology Right. So you want to make sure you have that right piece in place, and so we'll always go ahead and say, hey, these are the best practices that we've seen.
Speaker 3:This is a recommendation if they haven't done it yet and so they can have that system implemented. That's a really cool value add because a lot of our member firms think that, in terms of building to sell, can I build a law firm and can I exit myself from it, either to become pure CEO, not actually doing the legal work, or actually selling the entity at some point. And we know, jeremy, that the firms that have processes that are standardized, you can teach the next generation how to use them. They actually work and allow the lawyer to do what he or she, I think, think, is paid to do, which is to be creative with trying to solve a client's problem right or trying to create an opportunity for a client. That's really what we are paid to do, and so the fact that, as part of your process, really you almost have to install or demand or refine current processes, most of which are not going to be great, they just aren't. We just know this right.
Speaker 3:It is a cool byproduct of products like FileVine, casepeer, any of these softwares, that it really forces a firm to increase their own value because they have to pay attention to processes, and it sounds like under this model, you have one traffic cop who at least can monitor the flagged items. I think you used the term auditability, yes, so that's important too, because lawyers are always fearful of the two or 3% right. Yep, generally speaking, jeremy, is the pricing model based upon for the solo and small firm market? Number of seats, volume of transaction is probably very flexible at this stage of your development, but what's the general model there?
Speaker 1:There's generally going to be some low fixed dollar amount, but there's going to be some volume. It's going to be generally big enough to manage most of the small firms but yeah, if you were passing through a million documents a month, that would hit a different tier. There will be some small usage component to it, but generally the tiers are going to be based off of the firm size and the smaller firms have much lower volumes than large firms do. That's why we want to make sure that it's budget friendly for every different type of size firm that we're working with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Budget friendly and user friendly, Okay, Awesome. And you also have product for medical chronologies and again, this is something that you know. Back in the day, they actually came in the mail, big pile of them. Somebody had to sit down and actually we would punch holes in them and put them in binders, right? So the old office had lots and lots of binders of medical records and at some point the lawyer or maybe a nurse would go and make chronologies. I think AI associated products now that are trying to get this space right. So talk to us a little bit about yours. What do you call it?
Speaker 1:First of all, it's called MedCron. It's so original we may have to think of a better name for it. But in terms of what we're doing, a lot of it is trying to identify relevant facts as quickly as possible to the case, allowing the users to chat with their chronology effectively. We put it in order, summarize it, do the tagging and bookmarking. We think that it's a workflow improvement. Right now it is really challenging to be 100% perfect chronology I think we are several years out from getting to that point but we have a workflow that improves the process to get that information that they need, whether, hey, was this person intoxicated? There's two points of time where you look at a chronology Be the early part of the case should I accept it or not? Docs come in, should I work with this client or not? And I think rejecting or accepting a case can be more costly to an attorney than getting deep into the case and trying to maximize the value. So there's two different points for when you're really trying to distinguish the value prop here. So number one is should we take this case or not? And I can quickly give you that answer because now I can talk to the chronology. Everything's OCR'd.
Speaker 1:We've got some specialized models that are hooked up that we're working towards getting you that information. You can chat with it live, say hey, were they intoxicated, do they have preexisting conditions? Working on medical inconsistencies and all that. So that's part one, and part two is having that full-blown chronology. That's just exactly what a nurse or paralegal would come up with at the end of the day, and getting just the right facts stripped out of all the cases and I think that one is a longer term objective in terms of getting all the information out is one thing, but getting just the relevant pieces and having a clean end version of that I think we've done a good take on that.
Speaker 1:But there's a lot of work to go and the models are not there quite yet. So it's all about workflow improvement and I think we can save people 50 to 80% of their time what they're trying to do, what they're trying to focus on, so they can really take that time. They're really going to be focused on five or 10% of those medical documents versus you get 5,000 pages in. You may be looking at really key 50 to 100 pages of documents that you need to look at and that's what we hope you get to really quickly, with efficiency and a workflow process where you can look at it, tag it, bookmark everything, chat with it and ask questions. That really is different than a lot of the normal workflows that are being used today.
Speaker 3:This goes beyond the personal injury space, which is what you were describing there, into. A lot of our work is in the long-term disability space, not social security. But they too, those lawyers, deal with lots and lots of medical records. When we get a multi-thousand page claim filing from an insurance company, there's probably seven discrete categories that we're looking for, including what do the insurance companies doctors say, because that'll be in the file as well. You're right, like early on, it's just one that we can take and help the client, and client gets better and we get paid. That's what we're looking for. So I think there's huge opportunity there. It sounds like that MedCron is earlier in its development. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are currently in beta testing with call it 13, 14 companies right now and iterating pretty quickly. But we move at a rapid pace at our companies and probably in the next few weeks we're going to be moving and opening it up some more. But yeah, it's definitely on the beta side, but we're very excited about what we have and the value that we're seeing from the current folks that have access to it.
Speaker 3:So one of the things that we teach at Great Legal Marketing is obviously marketing and business building and practice building. So now I'm curious what is Veritech AI doing to get your word out there and to build a company that probably you could build and sell again?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. We've done some marketing the standard Facebook, instagram, a little bit of LinkedIn, a lot of it. We have hundreds of relationships in the Texas area that we're working with and talking to, but it hasn't been full bore yet. We're working on our go-to-market strategy to really ramp that up. Actually, we have a whole rebrand website that's coming out in the next week or two and pushing through on that front, but I'd say it's more your standard marketing. I think I have a lot to learn from you on that space and would definitely love to get your point of view on how to best market and leverage your brand, because there's no one better than Scott, than folks that have a lot of experience doing it and know really how to stand out in the market.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so. One thing that exists today in legal in 2024 that didn't exist so much even 10 years ago, is there's just a ton of conferences, but it has to be the right conference. Going to a traditional state bar or ABA conference is not your place, right. There's any number of individuals and companies that are running conferences where entrepreneurial lawyers who are trying to figure out how do I make my life better by making my company better? Am I serving the client better? We're gathered there, right, there's just a ton of places.
Speaker 3:So the way you should be is in these conferences where these firms that are doing 50 and 100 and $150 million in PI revenue like that's go and see how they think and what they're talking about, because that's where your big players are going to be. And then there's a bunch of conferences where the entrepreneurial smaller firms are and then figuring out a different way to pitch on LinkedIn other than hey, I'm Jeremy and I can sell you something Just showing up on podcasts like this, telling the story, getting first users, beta users who use and then break and then help you fix the system and then talk about to their friends and amongst their connections and real life human being connection. So I'm curious how many people are in your company? We've got 10 people. Are you all spread out?
Speaker 1:We're all spread out, but my partner and I are in Houston together, so that's been really nice, and then some of our other key folks are in Texas as well.
Speaker 3:But we're spread out across the country for the most part. What's the next biggest issue you're trying to figure out? Either growth-wise or product-wise.
Speaker 1:The one thing that I'd say is I didn't appreciate how big the market is relative.
Speaker 1:The oil and gas market is way different than the litigation market. I think we have so much to do between these two products and can get so deep and add so much value across the board, because even within them, even within Medcron, there are different user personas, different use cases, whether it's mass tort versus personal injury. I'm a big believer in getting deeper and just doing those things really well and being the best. So I think we're going to focus our time and attention on those two products and really deliver the best in class so we can dominate that space. Especially being a startup, you want to be focused on that. We've got plenty to chew on right now and I think the markets are just so large for these two spaces. It'll keep us busy for years to come and just continuing to innovate within those spaces will allow. There'll be adjacencies that kind of come in from litigation space that will add on over time but will be quite complimentary to what we're doing with those two.
Speaker 3:I do think the market is huge. Right as long as there's cars driving and people getting hurt and lawyers spending hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising to get these cases, the market is huge. You say you're doing a website rebrand, but whether someone listens to this before or after the new website is launched, what's the best way, jeremy, for people to reach out to you? Reach out to Veritech and just check you out and maybe have a conversation with you.
Speaker 1:Totally, so you can pop into the website at veritechai or email me directly, jeremy, at veritechai. So those are great ways, and I'm very active on LinkedIn as well, so if anybody wants to connect with me love having conversations and I love the solo attorneys that have taken a step out and people that have just taken solo to a bigger firm that have built out companies. It's so challenging to do that. Congratulations to you on all the success. It's very tough building a business and building a great brand is also very tough.
Speaker 1:I love chatting with people about that, and the one thing that we took that I think helped us really succeed in the energy space is that it's not just about selling. Whether I sell you a product or not, this is a long-term relationship, so I'm here to be a partner to everybody in the space, and if I see best-in-class technology and somebody asks me for it, I'm totally happy to give them my opinion on what I see in the market, and we see a tremendous amount of new technology coming out, and I know what works, what doesn't work, and it's all about adding value. At the end of the day, if you add value, everything else falls naturally into place, and that's what's helped us be so successful early on at ComboCurve and similarly at Veritech. We've had a lot of early wins because of that, and that's our very hyper focus. If we add value to folks, then everything else follows. It doesn't matter. Value has to be added to the other side always.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's the what can I do for you? First mentality and then running with people who think that way is so critical because most of the world, most of the human population, doesn't actually think that way and most lawyers don't actually think that way. So aligning yourself with both inside and outside of legal which is why we do the podcast like talking to really smart people who just think about the world differently. So this has been great. It's great to talk to you. What's the age range of the four kiddos?
Speaker 1:I have almost seven, almost four and my twins are almost two.
Speaker 3:That's a lot Jammed into the first seven years of parenthood there. And your wife?
Speaker 1:you said she's a former prosecutor, Former prosecutor, now stay-at-home mom, so very fortunate that she holds it down the four with those kiddos and I can focus on the business. You know how much work it is to run a business.
Speaker 3:It is, but it can be fun. Highs and lows, but it can be fun. Jeremy Gottlieb man, thanks so much for spending some time with us today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 2:It was great. If you like what you just heard on the Renegade Lawyer podcast, you may be a perfect fit for the great legal marketing community. Law firm owners across the country are becoming heroes to their families and icons in their communities. They've gone renegade by rejecting the status quo of the legal profession so they can deliver high quality legal services coupled with top notch customer service to clients who pay, stay and refer. Learn more at GreatLegalMarketingcom. That's GreatLegalMarketingcom.
