The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Ben Glass on No BS Time Management for Lawyers
In this episode of The Renegade Lawyer Podcast, I discuss practical time management tips for lawyers. Learn how to delegate effectively, combat time vampires, and create a work-life balance that fuels personal and professional growth. Tune in to discover strategies that can transform your legal practice and elevate your life.
Don't miss these insights that could help you achieve more success and happiness in both your career and personal life.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
I graduated 41 years ago from law school, but I'm pretty confident. I know that it didn't teach us and I'm pretty confident that what is missing is creativity, Like teaching the actual creative thinking process. Lawyers, to get into law school, you're good at issue identifying and spotting and kind of solving for that right, but no one is ever sitting down to talk about the things you and I talk about a lot and the groups that we hang out with a lot, which is like you know what are the sort of thinking patterns that you can use to puzzle over.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome back to. They Don't Teach this in Law School. I'm your host, charlie Mann, with Law Firm Alchemy, and today is just an absolute treat. I'm so excited because this episode not only am I talking with someone who is very important and special in my life, but also who has a big book launch this very day that we are going to insist that you take advantage of. But the truth is, this episode is going to be so packed with interesting ideas and information that you're just going to have to get the book by the end. It's going to be a conversation you wish will have gone on an extra hour. I am overjoyed, delighted, it's just a treat for me this morning to talk with a longtime friend and mentor of mine, ben Glass. Ben, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Hey Charlie, it's fun to be here pre-going live. We caught up a little bit with our respective families and goings on in the family, so it's always good, always good to chat with you. We both have growing families and extended families, and so that that's fun. And here we are, in the middle of getting bigger and bigger. Yeah, and here we are. July. It's hot as all get out, so it's great, great time to get in the office early and chat with you.
Speaker 3:That's right, there we go, making the occasion even that much better. So, ben, as always, the lead off question what's the one thing they don't teach you in law school?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so with the caveat being that, charlie, I graduated 41 years ago from law school, but I'm pretty confident I know that it didn't teach us and I'm pretty confident that what is missing is creativity, like teaching the actual creative thinking process. Lawyers, to get into law school, you're good at issue identifying and spotting and kind of solving for that right but no one is ever sitting down to talk about the things you and I talk about a lot and the groups that we hang out with a lot, which is like you know what are the sort of thinking patterns that you can use to puzzle over problems and to reject the little birdie that's saying, oh, that won't work, won't work in my business, whatever, and to try to just come up with ideas and safe ways to test them right. No courses or even professors who are interested in or know anything about the creative thinking process, which you and I have both found to be, you know, invaluable, I think, to our lives. So that's it. Yeah, I doubt anything's changed in 41 years.
Speaker 3:So I'm curious for yourself that, that creative thinking journey. Was this something that you had innately earlier on and you brought with you through law school? Or was this a spark that ignited and a journey you went on after?
Speaker 1:Well, to some extent. I mean, if you remember the stories like, I was a guy dealing stuff out of my locker in high school and for anyone who's shocked by that, this was. I grew up playing soccer this is pre-internet pre-soccer stores and I was selling shorts and shoes to my buddies at a locker. So to a certain extent there was a spark there for that. I was always. I was the guy looking at the back of the comic books where all the cool ads were right and actually sending away and ordering the how to Be the Strongman and how to get x-ray glasses and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So now that all being said, I think it certainly exploded when I started hanging out with entrepreneurs. I got out of the lawyer box although I'm still a full-time practicing attorney and hang with people you and I hang out with a lot who are always looking at all right, what's the unusual here? Could we test it? How will we know if we're right or we're wrong? And then to and to sort of overcome the fear that you're going to fail a lot, right, we come up with a lot of bad ideas, but that's okay, that's right that's right.
Speaker 3:The the creative process is littered with bad ideas and everyone you know can afford themselves that level of grace of. It's okay to have a bad idea. It's even okay to put a bad idea out into the world and find out that it's not working. Have validated results for yourself, right.
Speaker 1:We've proven that over and over again, but we're still here. But we're still here. So I mean, that's the important point Like no one's a lot of people like you think especially I talk to young people like they think the whole world's watching them and judging them. Well, nobody's actually watching you and maybe people are judging you, but it's like five of them. And really what we're trying to do is trying to live as you know, I believe, maximize your gifts, your talents and your interests and put your stamp on the world. And part of what we talk about in the book Deanna and I is like just ignoring the critics who are going to be there and who are going to try to pull you back into their world.
Speaker 3:You know, ben, that actually that's a perfect mention right there, because one of the earliest creative thinking things that I saw from you and that I even modeled in my own life and I want to spread the gospel on this was the way that you carved out time in your life for your family and that you carved out time for you to do things like creative thinking in a fairly radical act of these days we would refer to it nominally as self-care. I know that you're unafraid of saying self-ish in a positive way, because that can allow you to positively affect the world. Selfish in a positive way, because that can allow you to positively affect the world. What was it that shifted for you to make that radical change of? I'm going to do something that, in the law, is not a common choice?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think it's a mental, it's a mindset issue, right, it's. It's not feeling guilty about doing that and realizing that. And yes, I do use the word selfish a lot, because you are the racehorse, particularly if you're a business owner, right, you are the racehorse. And if you're not good physically, mentally, spiritually, financially, emotionally, all of that, then you're not going to have impact, you're not going to be the best for your employees, for your family, and so, and look, just because we say it doesn't mean it's easy, like it is not easy being an entrepreneur, being a law firm owner.
Speaker 1:Many of our law firm owner friends also have ancillary businesses and interests, things that they're good at, and it could be non-business interests athletics and music, and you know, we know performing artists, right, who are lawyers but it is saying to yourself and hanging out with people. So the the fulcrum, the change was when I started to hang out with people. I go, yes, damn it Like, that's exactly the way it's supposed to be, not, not the other way. Don't ever feel embarrassed or shamed or guilty about maximizing your own life happiness. We don't know how many days we have. Screw it Like we just don't. And so, and there's ways, and just about everybody that you and I know who are highly, who you would look at and who believe they are highly successful and who are highly successful Like I think they think like this right, and so we've proven that this model actually works.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the that mindset, that that shift that you made from there, taking that mindset, if you were talking with an attorney right now, it goes ben I. I get it like that idea of carving out for my family. I really want to do it. What are a couple of practical anchors I could use to make that shift?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, it's a great question. So the example I've always given is that you would be uninterrupted if you were in a deposition, like, even if a judge calls you, they ain't getting through to you. You're in a deposition, you're in a trial, whatever, you're uninterrupted. So we know it is actually possible to isolate yourself and not have interruptions, because that's the life we live. We do that, all right. Well, now let's just elevate these other things that we have said are important to us, and again, it'll be different. Your list will be different from mine, you know. Billy's list will be different. Susie's list will be different. Okay, whatever it is, just know we now know that this is possible, all right. And so the this, this tactical strategy is really is time blocking. I mean that's and Dan and I talk about this in the book and it's saying okay, these are things that I value highly reading vacation exercise for both of us, things like that. Let's put them on the calendar.
Speaker 1:And the challenge for most lawyers, charlie, is they look at their calendar and it's really crowded. Okay, but it's not crowded. Six months. If the first time you can place it is six months from now, because your calendar is so screwed up right now everything else is like imposing themselves in your life. Okay, go do it. And so go, build a perfect day, a perfect week, a perfect month, and you may have to start months down the line, but if you're serious about this, you now know that you can do it and you will do it.
Speaker 1:And so Sammy Chong, my mindset coach, like, okay, got to take the big rocks, got to put the big rocks down first, and so that's the tactical thing. The thing I'm good at is to-do list hardly exists at all. Right, because as soon as something makes that list, it has to find a place in the calendar. Kennedy introduced me to this in the first edition of no BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs. It has to find a place in the calendar. If you can't find a place for it, then you're never going to find a place for it just by trying to jam it in, except by cheating on your family right, stealing time from them to put in there. So that's the discipline that, charlie, that anybody who's listening to this could begin to exercise. Fill your future calendar with the blocks that are perfect for you and just look around and hang out with people who will support the notion that, yeah, you know what the world's not going to end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm sure that in doing that exercise, people would look at their calendar and recognize that there's a lot of fluff in it, what I've heard you refer to as the time vampires. So what are some of the common time vampires that you see lawyers allowing to drain them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Dan wrote about this in the first edition and then he gave me that chapter, and so you may well recognize some of the people that I write about in the chapter on time vampires. But time vampires can be human beings, right, and they can be things like social media. I mean. Social media is like the obvious thing you look at one cat video and 40 minutes later you're deep into 77th cat video, cat videos are still killing time, yeah.
Speaker 1:So a time vampire is any person or thing that is taking away from you. They're really stealing. Our friend, lee Miltier put this really well a long time ago. She says we guard our wallets with our lives Like nobody can. It's hard to come steal my wallet, but we let people and things come in and steal our time. And time is not replaceable, right, like if that hour is gone, that hour is gone forever.
Speaker 1:So, for example, in the book we talk about you know the drop by artist in the firm who's always like they see the door open, they see your light on, they just drop by just for a moment. Or I just have a question. And, as a law firm leader, like you have to lead your team and you have to be there for them. But, charlie, there's no rule that says you have to be there for them 24-7, whenever they have a brain fart, okay, and so again, so and so what do we do? How do we solve for that? Well, let's block time in the week. That's open hours If we want to, and or an open hour like if you've, charlie, if you've got things you want to talk to me about, great, make a list, find a time that I've already designated. That fits my schedule for people to come walk in and bring me your list, but bring me three potential solutions and your recommendation as to the solution you think we should go with, because that's how you're going to learn if I disagree with that. But now we're, and I know that this is coming, so I can. I can even prepare for you say, hey, maybe here's the topics we're going to talk about. I can prepare for that. It goes same thing.
Speaker 1:As you know, when I read the first edition of the book many years ago, the very first thing I did is I cut off for all time in my life unplanned inbound phone calls. So those are time vampires. See, they occur on other people's brain. Farts Like, oh, I've got to talk to Ben. Well, no, actually. No, ben's working and he's not prepared for the call and so there's no good that can come out of that. Right, but, charlie, you need to talk to me. Great, if a client or somebody wants to talk to Ben, we can make that happen within 24 to 35 business hours. We can make it happen Again. We save some time for this. But when that call happens, charlie, make it happen Again, we save some time for this.
Speaker 1:But when that call happens, Charlie, because you have already, because now you've talked to my assistant, like here's the agenda, here's my question. I've looked at the document that we're talking about. I'm prepared, you're prepared, and there's zero phone tag. I haven't had voicemail for 25 years. I never play phone tag with anybody, because if you actually make that appointment, charlie, and you don't show up, you get put to the way back of the.
Speaker 1:And that's all about. It's all about when we talk about this in the book valuing your time like knowing the true value of your time, what we talked about earlier. Recognize you're the freaking racehorse. Like the reason these people have jobs and the reason these clients are getting their legal problems solved is because of you. Like the law firm leader, let's just be arrogantly confident about that. Anyone who disagrees like come on my podcast, let's discuss that. But then the world just goes right. And, charlie, you know, when I went to the no unplanned inbound phone call, it's like my whole team told me that wasn't going to work, like that's going to be impossible. People will never put up with it. You know, I don't have any issues. People appreciate it, even defense lawyers, judges.
Speaker 3:Again. If a judge tried to this thinking is well, that that's Ben, who's been graduated from law school for 41 years, has, has successful businesses, has the resources and everything. And here I am. I'm sitting at doing $400,000 a year. I've got two team members. I feel like I've got so much going on. This sounds impossible. I think the dirty little secret that it's not really a secret is, at one point you had a firm like that and you were still starting to make radical decisions For that person who's sitting back at that point, who is decades earlier in the journey from where you are today. What advice do you have for that person?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if my question back to them would be are you happy? And if the answer is yes, fine, but if the answer is no, my next question would be do you want to change? Commit to me that you want to make a change. Okay, the next thing would be I think again, the very first tactic would be and I engage in this still, charlie's like give yourself two, three hours. Like go away, take a pad, don't even take a device, you don't need a device to do this. Take a pad and just start to think about all of the things that you are responsible for doing. If you can't do that, track your time.
Speaker 1:The Lee Miltier taught us like track your time for a week, that's too hard. Track your time for two days, you'll go crazy. Right every 15 minutes. What am I actually doing? All right? Well, you want to be like your four hundred thousand dollar top line revenue. You want to be a seven figure top line revenue? Great, we got to get rid of all the ten dollar jobs that you're doing right now. Right, and then understand this. See the it again.
Speaker 1:Everything's a mindset problem For Ben. Everything's a mindset problem, right? Is we think well, no one could do it as good as I could. The client wants me. They called me all that and we've proven this objectively to be wrong.
Speaker 1:Know that for everything that either you don't like doing or is well below your pay grade, there's somebody in the world emphasis on, in the world, right who would thrive on that work. They may be local, they may be in your office, they may be, as you and I both have executive assistants who are sitting in the Philippines working our time. We have now five Philippine-based employees for the law firm and it's a total win-win relationship, right. They make more money working for us than they would in the local economy. They get to learn from people like us, people like you, right. So they're getting this exposure to business that they likely would not get. It's a total win-win.
Speaker 1:But that's where I would start. So I'm the guy or gal who's sitting at 400K and I've answered the question. No, ben, I'm not really happy, like. This isn't what I went to law school for, all right. Then you have to make a commitment to change, and that commitment starts with letting go of the vine. And then there's ways and I talk about this in the book. There's ways to bring your team up to speed Like no one could. No one could talk to a client as well as I can. Oh, solve that problem. Have your team sit in every fucking, every freaking client call you do have your team sit in on the speakerphone and listen.
Speaker 1:how does ben talk to this person? Today? All of our you know all our calls are recorded and today they run through ai and summarize and you know so that. So the team has. Also, you have all sorts of resources to teach your team. I will tell you, like I hardly ever talk to clients, I do a certain level of high level consulting to doctors and entrepreneurs about disability claims, but actually, the day to day, talking to clients, you know we have built this team and so, yes, today, charlie, yes, we have this team. But you know, I started, I started incrementally doing things that Dan Kennedy wrote about in the first edition of no BS Time Management. And because my life is different from Dan's in that I've got multiple employees, I've got a big family. He's always been very aware of that. That's why he asked me to come in on this fourth edition and to add some new perspective. Right, and we're writing for the entrepreneur. You know Cal Newport has this great new book called what is it?
Speaker 3:Picture the Outdoors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, hold on, I wrote it down Slow productivity. It's awesome, except for entrepreneurs cannot engage in slow productivity. We have to make things happen today, right, and so we don't have that luxury. And so no BS. Time Management is just filled with A.
Speaker 1:The philosophy Dan said in a recent newsletter and I think you get this newsletter he says when you read this, you may be surprised to see that gentle Ben he called me is much more aligned with ruthless Dan than most people think. So you have this philosophical belief that, yes, you were born to lead and you are important to the world. Hey guys, this is Ben. If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts you should know that my son, brian, and I have built a tribe of like-minded lawyers who are living lives with their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice. We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full-time practicing attorneys.
Speaker 1:Check us out at greatlegalmarketingcom. All right, and now we're going to sort of objectively like where do I want to get you know what is the value of my time. Dan's written a great chapter on that and then we just give strategy after strategy of how to maximize this for yourself, and a lot of it is building a great team. And again today, with the advent of you know technology and these companies that are just helping match up people like you and me, charlie, to people around the world, and again they could be in your office and they could be in you know Central America. Who are, who are great?
Speaker 3:our experiences, oh yeah, great yeah oh yeah, I mean, it's amazing that that change in resources between you know, starting the firm in 1995 and now we're nearly at 2025, the change in resources and what is available, going from, say, local with some vendor, to literally worldwide labor pool, is a massive game changer.
Speaker 3:You have a whole chapter in the book about firing yourself, which you started talking a little bit about, and that's a challenge that I know you and I have seen, especially with firm owners who are, say, getting up towards that million dollar mark, who are, say, getting up towards that million dollar mark and they're getting to that point of I'm going to need to bring on another couple of attorneys to open up the ability to service more client matters. And they run into this point of and you start talking about this but how do I bring on an attorney who's going to do this as well as me? You know what, I'm just going to handle everything myself. And they get stuck at this point, that area that that I'm the best thing. Getting into the pragmatic nature of mindset of when you encountered those moments of you know what I'm the best at it, was there something that you would tell yourself or that you would go to as a resource to intellectually handle that and get to the mindset that you do Well.
Speaker 1:So my resource on that was Sammy Chong, my mindset coach now for probably over a decade. And Sammy basically says I don't know, that might be BS, but we'll never really know until we in Sammy's words, you know ask the universe. And so here's the thing, charlie, you and I both know you can grind your way, grind your way to about seven figures for sure. I think that sacrifice to self, sacrifice in a bad way, sacrifice, sacrifice of family, sacrifice of health, those sort of things, and for some people that's that's fine. Again, we're not trying to tell people. I never tell people how to live their lives, but if they want to, if they answer the question, are you happy? And they say, no, I'm not happy. Like, I do have some ideas about how to become happy. But if you want to get past that seven figure mark, you are most certainly going to need to build a team.
Speaker 1:I was talking to a fellow yesterday and that's a growing personal injury practice west, west side of the country, but still he's the only lawyer like and and the marketing is working. You know he's getting more cases. He's got a team. But his next and we were talking about like, how do I get more cases like you don't need more cases, like you need to start building a team and you need a lawyer. And so there's two things that people think about, charlie, one, pertinent really to this conversation, which is the mindset part Are they going to do as good as I can? And then the other is the compensation plan part. Like so so many people are fearful of, I'm going to pay, you know, 80 or 100K, whatever it is like for an associate lawyer. That's a lot of money, but you don't have to pay it all on Monday, right? And so figuring out and that's where, like, your work and our work comes in is really important, because what you and I are good at is teaching lawyers A this mindset part. But then here's systems that are proven now and processes that are proven and processes that are proven.
Speaker 1:And then assembling groups of lawyers, charlie, who will push you. Uh, as you and I have both been running masterminds and in masterminds, right where other members and maybe the person at the head of the table running the group, are pushing you to go, look, I've seen this before. Yes, it's going to be a little bit stressful. Yes, sure, you could fail, but it's not likely, it's just not. Yes, it's going to be a little bit stressful. Yes, sure you could fail, but it's not likely. It's just not likely that you're going to fail at this, and so let us help you find that next lawyer. I think that's important.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing is when you get really good at this, the search is not for someone who could do it as good as me. The search is for someone who's better than I am, and that's ego. So our friend Craig Goldenfarb, down in Florida he's brilliant at this. He's surrounded himself with lawyers who are really really good lawyers, and there's a number of other people that are running sort of big, big practices PI practices who haven't handled a case, don't want to handle a case and have no fear about not being the guy in the courtroom handling the case, and yet they're serving the world, they're making money, their employees make money and their clients are well served. So like what's wrong with that picture?
Speaker 3:nothing yeah, you end up creating a job as well for someone who would love to be in a firm that is generating robust, high value cases that they get to work up. Whether it's strategic planning for a high net worth individual or serious car accident matter or a difficult divorce that someone's going through, you create that as the entrepreneur, the head of the firm, you create space for others to also live out a dream.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you do that, you do that better than all the bar associations and their stupid CLEs. I mean seriously, like Better than all the bar associations and their stupid CLEs. I mean seriously, like like come work for some of the lawyers that you and I coach and have coached. Come work for those guys and gals Better than three years in law school, honestly, you'll learn more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as you've seen for a long time, as I've seen as well, the practical side of what it takes to apply the law to help a client's life. It's not completely divergent from law school, but it's not a one-to-one match between those two places. People need experience in a firm where you have an owner who, by the way, is not buried in a caseload but has the time to take care of the people and to lead the people and actually to build leaders. So that's another thing that I'm curious about kind of doing a little stages thing here. If you got that $400,000, you got that short of a million, but then you've got, say, that two $3 million firm owner and one of the things that they're having trouble with is establishing leaders. They want to still make all of the decisions and that can be a huge time vampire. So talk to me about that stage of the journey for a firm yeah.
Speaker 1:So that is, I think, one of the more challenging spaces because it's it's we you and I have talked about this a lot. It's like the lawyers who get you there by providing the legal services really well, who can go and do the technical legal and you need them came from law school, so they're often not the folks who can quote, be the leader of the next generation or the next move up the revenue ladder, and so firms that have done this really well, creative thinking. So why does that person need to be a lawyer? Why does my law firm leader need to be a lawyer? Like, right now, it's still you can't in most places you can't be an owner without being a lawyer. I think that's going to change.
Speaker 1:But there's no rule that says you can't have well compensated non-lawyer leaders. Now they could be lawyers. But again, that skill set of being a great technical lawyer whether it's defending people in court or representing them as a plaintiff, or helping you build your next business enterprise as a plaintiff or, you know, building, helping you build your next business enterprise like that's not necessarily a leadership skill. And so, again, talking about what they don't teach in law school, like teaching, teaching law firm owners how to identify leaders and that's why people like our friend Bill Biggs you know that he's carved out this space in the legal world and the plaintiff's contingency legal world of I can help you develop to identify and develop your next generation of leaders. But I will tell you that that is a big challenge because, again, most of us Charlie, the firms that we coach, like these you don't have a lot of experience, you don't have a lot of at bats, right, right, hermosi, you don't have a lot of reps of bringing on leadership and growing leaders, and so it's a very small numbers game. If you miss, you miss badly.
Speaker 1:It's not to say you shouldn't try. So here's the thing. For that. My argument is, when you're at the $800 million to $3 million, some of the conferences at least some of the conferences you should be going to are the conferences of the guys that are doing $50 million and $200 million. Just go to those conferences and be curious. The marketing is the same, the intake is the same, the numbers are bigger but the development of leaders is different, and it's something that you know. Frankly, we just don't have enough at bats to be really expert. But I think that some of these, some of these events if I was going to them, and I do like that's what I'm looking for is that leadership question. It's a tough one question.
Speaker 3:It's a tough one, yeah, it's, and it's interesting that that at bats thing is what I also hear. Is you giving permission to people to still step up to bat, knowing that no one bats a thousand when it comes to leadership? You will fail at leadership, and you're right. It is a smaller set, but what are you going to? Do not try, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, and the I mean. The other thing you can do we talk about this a lot is you could run like we run eos, traction, so with a coach, and so that is. That is the ben glass solution at this part of the journey for growing the firm with the people that we have, by improving the, the business operating system. So again, the book would be Traction, or Get a Grip actually, and EOS or Entrepreneur Operating System would be the program to just check out and see if it's right for you.
Speaker 1:But being in a room look so, being in a room with your mastermind group, our mastermind groups, and there's a bunch of people that are running a bunch of quality people running good groups I think what you want to look for is who else is in the group. You don't want to be the smartest one in the group. You don't want to be the highest revenue producer in the group. You want to be in a group that's going to pull you up, and I've done that. That's something I've done pretty well in terms of me being in groups, of an investing in myself, as you have invested in yourself in in groups that make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, oh yes, as a as a last little thing here, cause you had touched on it earlier and we didn't dig into it, but I know you go into it. In the book there isn't a technology side. We talk about resources, people, wise, having changed over the last 30 years. Certainly, technology has changed over the last 30 years. So I'm curious for you and the firm, because I've always appreciated, ben, your combination of old school. Let's bust out the legal pad, something that I love but also you're not afraid of technology either.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing because the discussion that Dan and I had was will you write the technology chapter of the book? And I'm like, okay, but my technology chapter is that the leader isn't the one running the technology.
Speaker 3:So that's an important no yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:so, like you know, slack I don't have slack. I don't have, so I don't have office email on my phone. I have my gmail, but only because I get referee assignments, soccer referee assignments through that. My phone does not beep, buzz, ding, vibrate or anything which frustrates my family. But that's just the way I choose it to be. I don't have Slack. They took away my lead docket license right Now.
Speaker 1:The firm, so the technology. So in the last 24 months the firm invested a lot in technology and what we wanted to do better, charlie, was match up our marketing spend with accountability, like what dollars out we're bringing dollars in and so getting everything to talk to for us. Case Peer and Lead Docket and our marketing director, lauren, has done a great job with getting all that software to talk to each other. So my personal tech stack is not that big. My personal tech stack now is I have a full-time, 40-hour executive assistant in the Philippines who I send a Loom video to and say make this happen for me please and put it on my calendar, and it happens right. Happen for me please and put it on my calendar, and it happens right.
Speaker 1:And now I've always been curious, as you know, about technology and certainly in terms of the decision making of what to get for the firm. Yeah, but then they don't let me I don't touch it too much and I think that is a place where you can get. That can be a time vampire, right? So getting someone to run the technology and get you the reports that you need important, you being the one to know how to go into SEMrush or something like that to figure out what pages have a high balance rate or whatever it is you're looking at? Probably not so much. That's a time vampire. Yeah, it's interesting, but it could be a big suck Pay for expertise on that.
Speaker 3:I would say that that note right there of it can be interesting is such a perfect encapsulation of the idea of the time vampire, of, not the one, that the big overt one, the person, like you said, the, the, the drive-by artist, the, the who comes in, interrupts. We all can see that one, but it's so hard to see the. Oh, you know what? I was tinkering on file vine for the last three hours. I didn't change anything, but I sure tinkered in file.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look what I found. It'll do this. We should start this policy yesterday and let's. I'm like no, no, it's not how you make decisions about this stuff.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. So then if people I mean first off, I will give the heartiest of recommendations that people go out and purchase no BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs, dan Kennedy and Ben Glass. So people want to go and get their hands on that? Where can they find it?
Speaker 1:Well, I think so. It gets released on Amazon on August 13. And that's going to be the best place to go, I think, and get it the quickest. The last book Dan published just a couple months ago it sold out very, very quickly and Amazon was embarrassed because they could not deliver overnight. So I think like that would be the easiest place to go to get it. It is the fourth edition.
Speaker 1:I was really excited, charlie, to be invited in to add a perspective that you know, dan. Admittedly, like this is a place where Ben is going to be able to explain some things to entrepreneurs running small biz, small and medium-sized biz across the country. And because I'm a lawyer and my lawyer friends will just see the imprint in there it's a book that really every lawyer running a firm Varsize, solo or small firm should have in their library, because it's filled and read it, and read it right. It's filled with practical advice. And then reach out. If you've got questions like I'm not sure how I can make this work to me, reach out. I like to help people. I've got time slots open and Claire, my executive assistant, will help us get together. Or, if enough people want to know, we'll run a webinar or something.
Speaker 3:And if you want to connect farther with ben, there will be all the good links in the description below. Yeah, make sure that you go and check out ben glass law great legal marketing. Connect with ben on social media, so, and definitely get the book. And, by the way, I'll recommend, as someone who had that book handed to me by you, ben, I will recommend grab the this book for key members of your team or even your entire team. It is among the books that you can easily distribute to team members and have them take some practical stuff from it. This would be very high up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if someone on your team looks at it and goes, oh my gosh, like I hate this stuff and that's probably an indication that aren't really good for you, I mean, maybe they should be running their own business, which is fair right, but if you are philosophically aligned, you might as well have your team read it.
Speaker 3:All right, ben. One last little triple part question for you. What are you reading, watching and listening to these days?
Speaker 1:So I'm listening to. I think so. One of my favorite podcasts is the one that Guy Sakalakis and Conrad Sam do lunchtime marketing for lawyers. Lunch hour legal. Lunch hour legal marketing. That's very practical advice. This summer. I have a stack at home so I'm reading right now. You'll appreciate this. So there was a book a decade or so ago called the Everything Store and it was about Amazon. So there's a hit piece out this summer called the Everything War and it's a hit piece on Amazon. Now my look at it is it's actually a model to how to run a business and if you just read it and knock out all the editorializing in it, that you'll see like, oh no, this actually makes a lot of sense. Like, yeah, you should dominate a market.
Speaker 1:Reading, watching, listening to let's see, I don't know we. You know Sandy and I binge watch. I guess right now we're watching the Euros and we're watching Copa America Not we, ben, because no one else in my family sits down to watch it. But it is the summer of soccer, as my fubo app says, the summer of soccer. They have a special tag for that, so that's right. There's been some thrillers. There's been good game. That's the only live sports that I'll. I will sit down and and uh and watch right um will you catch any of the olympics coming up yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So if there's live soccer and and you know other, let's see it's in it's in france, so even the live stuff could be like live and you don't have to get up the middle of the night. So so, absolutely, yeah, it's up. I don't know. There was something the other night, charlie, and like how could that be a sport? I forget it wasn't skateboarding, it was something else that was really I'm like that's not. Maybe it was like that's not a limit.
Speaker 3:They have break dancing in the olympics. Now, ben, they have break dancing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So no, I'm like the sprinters, the team sports like that's a cool stuff. Pole vaulters like that's cool stuff.
Speaker 3:Oh well, if you're interested in that, I will quickly recommend the documentary six-part series Sprint on Netflix, which is all about the 100-meter and 200-meter runners going up through the world championships in 2023 in Budapest, and it is electrifying to watch them run, but also fascinating from a mindset perspective to see the way they think about developing themselves as champions.
Speaker 1:I'll add that to the list. Yeah, I think those are important documentaries.
Speaker 3:Yeah, among my favorite. Well, Ben, thank you so much for your time here. It was a treat Everyone. Please go get no BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs Dan Kennedy and Ben Glass. It's going to be Everyone. Please go get no BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs Dan Kennedy and Ben Glass. It's going to be exceptional.
Speaker 1:My pleasure, all right, talk later.
Speaker 3:We'll see you all in the next episode of they Don't Teach this in Law School.
Speaker 2:If you like what you just heard on the Renegade Lawyer podcast, you may be a perfect fit for the great legal marketing community. Law firm owners across the country are becoming heroes to their families and icons in their communities. They've gone renegade by rejecting the status quo of the legal profession so they can deliver high quality legal services coupled with top-notch customer service to clients who pay, stay and refer. Learn more at greatlegalmarketingcom. That's greatlegalmarketingcom.
