The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Empowering Female Entrepreneurs: Andrea Liebross on Big Thinking and Strategic Growth
In this episode of The Renegade Lawyers Podcast, we dive into the world of big thinking with Andrea Liebross.
She's the author of "She Thinks Big" and an expert in helping ambitious entrepreneurs, especially women, navigate through the "messy middle" of growing a business.
We discuss the importance of visioning, securing support, and shifting from doing to strategic thinking.
Andrea shares invaluable insights on how to break free from the "small business" mindset and scale your business with confidence. Tune in for a transformative conversation!
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
I have nine or 10 different client personas in the book and they kind of you know, I bring them up in different chapters and people. You know, sometimes people say to me I can totally relate to your story about Joan. Like I feel like I'm Joan or I'm Sarah or I'm whatever, and I think that gives them a sense of reassurance and it also gives them a glimmer of hope, right, like, hey, I could improve on this situation If I hired Ben. You know, things would be better. So I think the book and the book surprising me too Sometimes, like I had someone reach out to me and say we are reading the book in our book club. Okay, would you be willing to talk to our book club? Okay. So I got on like a 20 minute zoom and I was like, okay, what are you guys reading, what are you discussing? And I shared with them some of my author insights and you know I gained clients from it.
Speaker 2:Hey there. I just want to take a quick break from today's podcast to tell you about an event that we're hosting August 1 and 2. I'm going to be hosting a small, intimate event for solo and small firm lawyers here in our offices in Fairfax, virginia. If you've never been to a great legal marketing event before, or even if you have, this is going to be the place for you to start. If you're running a small law firm and you're looking for ways to attract more clients without spending a lot more money, we're going to be diving deeper over those two days into all the little DIY things you can do, even if you have a small team. This is going to be perfect for a law firm that's doing between about $500,000 and a million dollars in top line revenue. If you're making more money than that, good for you. You're doing a lot of things right, but this event isn't for you.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you what this is not. This is not an event where, under the guise of a seminar, we're going to be selling you websites, pay-per-click ads or other digital marketing media. That's not our space in the market. This is where you're going to learn how to effectively use your next hour and your next dollar in growing your law firm. We'll be part lecture and part workshop. There'll be some prep work to do before the event and some post-event follow-up so we can answer lingering questions and keep you motivated to building a better life for you and your family Together. Let's figure out why you're not making more money, getting better cases and converting more of your leads. Again, this is August 1 and 2 in our offices in Purifax, virginia, and if you want to be on the early list of people who are getting up-to-date information, just shoot me an email at ben at greatlegalmarketingcom.
Speaker 3:That's ben at greatlegalmarketingcom, and I'll make sure you're one of the first to know. Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, welcome back. This is Ben Glass. This is the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where each episode, I get to interview people inside and outside of legal. We're making a ding in the world. Renegade Lawyer Podcast is a production of Great Legal Marketing, where smart lawyers and solo and small firms come. These lawyers aren't the ones spending tens of thousands of dollars every month trying to buy advertising and trying to buy leads.
Speaker 2:Today's going to be really fun. I'm going to let you listen in on a conversation I'm having with Andrea Libros. Angela is the author of a book called she Thinks Big. She's a big thinking expert for high achieving female entrepreneurs. Although if you're a guy and you're listening to this and you like the message and you like her philosophy, she will not shun you.
Speaker 2:You can reach out to Andrea, which primarily works helping bold, ambitious women make the shift from small thinking and feeling overwhelmed in business and life to getting the clarity, competence and freedom that they crave. And Andrea, this is so important because in legal, I think that the woman attorney, particularly the woman trial attorney, like they're my heroes. They have really let's just say, they just have the hardest job, particularly if they're also raising a family, which many of our members are doing so. They're trying to balance all of these, you know, these heavy weights right on their shoulders, and if they're members of our firm they're typically members of Great Legal Marketing they're typically also running a law firm, so that's why I wanted to get you on to talk to you today. How?
Speaker 1:are you? I am good, how are you?
Speaker 2:Very good and tell us a little bit about the background, your background. There's lots and lots of sort of coaches out there. There's mentors. I know that there's a difference between coaches and mentors, but what drives you and how did you end up like here doing this work? Great question.
Speaker 1:So I worked for a company for a while in a corporate role where I was recruiting and hiring and training new entrepreneurs, so basically they were like franchise owners and I stayed there for about 10 years and after a while I kind of had enough of the corporate you know lingo and I left and I thought, ok, what's next? And also, in the same breath, was like, why did I stay there for 10 years? Right? So what I realized was that I really loved helping these new business owners get through what I've now termed the messy middle, right? So this is when you have started your business and you could be a year in, you might even be 10 years and you could be 15 years in, but something shifted where, number one, you might have more responsibilities in both at home and in your business. Because now your business has grown, okay, and you're realizing like, oh my gosh, it's almost like this chaos or confusion or overwhelm that's created by success, in a sense, because you can't quite handle things the way now, the way you did in the beginning, right? I'm sure you've met some people like this.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. I mean you have the entrepreneurial seizure, michael Gerber, like okay, how hard could this be? Let's, I'm good at whatever. Let's go run a business. I'm a good lawyer. Let's go run a business. You realize all the things you don't know. I have a member out in Oklahoma, matt Davis. He calls it the badlands. When you start to grow and you're growing into the need for leadership and business skills that you've never had the need for before.
Speaker 1:And you're in, you're. You know you started this because of your profession, because of your passion, because of what you wanted to offer the world, not because you necessarily wanted to run a business. You might've started because you wanted the to reap the so-called benefits of owning your own business right, but the freedom that might allow. But along with that comes so many other things. So that's where I kind of realized like that's my sweet spot and that's where I love helping people get through that messy middle. Now, spoiler alert, there's always another messy middle down the road, like in the next stage, right, that it's kind of cyclical stage, right, it's kind of cyclical, Sure.
Speaker 2:So most Great Legal Marketing members, they come to us good lawyers, good people lacking in generalized business skills. Yes, we help them market better, get more clients. We help them fix the holes in the buckets of their business, develop processes and systems, and then they get to this whole other level where, geez, now I need to develop new leaders, right, or another set of leaders in the firm, and that's an entirely different frustrating the first time you go through it. So you're right. But I did have a friend of mine tell me once, and he is the CEO of a major CRM company. He says you know, we were three guys in a small office over a pizza parlor in the beginning writing code like we had problems. Today I have problems. I like today's problems better.
Speaker 1:So true, so true, it's very true and it's interesting you brought up like the leader part right, where I think a lot of people start out, where they're the leader and then they're also probably the main deliverer of services, and then they have a lot of doers right. They have a lot of people maybe below doing the tasks, doing the other things. But there comes a point where you need that middle right or even multiple layers in that middle, and that's another stage of the messy middle, in a sense of when you realize that there's too much of a gap between the doers and the leaders and you need some implementers or process people in that middle sense, so middle space.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's an interesting phenomenon. You know we teach and I'm sure you do too. It's like let's talk for a moment about the owner or the founder's ego, because and I know you've worked with lawyers I have, like biggest thinkers of this proposition nobody could do this as good as I can. Right could do this as good as I can. So they have a really hard time letting go of the vine, letting others, the doers, explode their gifts and talents, and that's a real limiter. Over time, we're able to show them you actually serve the world better when you get out of the way.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, when you get out of the way, 100% yeah, and you become the other thing with attorneys especially is you want to get it right.
Speaker 1:You need to get it right the first time, and I think sometimes in the world of business, b minus work that's turned in is better than A plus work that's never turned in. Or sometimes I like to say 81% is done versus 100% that's never done, but that's not really a concept in your world. That's applicable to the actual delivery of a service or product in a courtroom or through a case. So in a business sense though, you can kind of get away with that, and that's a hard shift.
Speaker 2:And I think you can get away with it in law. So the curse of the lawyer is the skills that they had to get them into law school, get them through law school and pass the bar are all about doing A plus work and doing all of it Like to pass the bar. You have to. You know all of these areas of the law like.
Speaker 2:The last time you'll ever have a tax question is probably the day you took the bar for many of us for example, this concept of it doesn't have to be perfect is okay, and to me it's kind of mixed with the concept of nobody could do it as good as I could. So, for example, when you're young, in your own business you're picking up the phone often and you're directly the first one to talk substantively to a new client, because nobody could talk to that client as good as I could. And what we find over time is actually you have somebody who's trained at sales and customer experience. They're going to have more time and energy to be able to deliver a better experience than you could.
Speaker 2:So your score might be 85%, but their score might be 98% and we got to get out of the way, right, right, their score might be 98% and we got to get out of the way, right, right.
Speaker 1:So, getting out of the way, you know? How does that? Then? I kind of go into like well, what's your vision for your firm or your small business moving forward? Did you always envision that you would be doing all the things? And most of the time they were like, no, I didn't, I don't want that, I can't do all the things. And most of the time they were like, no, I didn't, I don't want that, I can't do all the things. But yet there's this struggle to get to, to break the mold. So that's when you have to kind of really get clear on what your vision is for this. And then how do you turn it into actions? Now, right, what's the next best step? Like that's what I always say what's the next best?
Speaker 2:step. You are listening in secret to the conversations we have here, because our mantra is we're going to show you and help you figure out the best use of your next hour and your next dollar.
Speaker 1:There you go. What's?
Speaker 2:the best thing to do. But let's talk about the vision thing. Okay, because I think it's another thing that challenges lawyers is to give themselves permission to really have a no-holds-barred vision. Our industry is a self-sacrificial industry. That's reinforced by law school. It's reinforced by the profession. You are supposed to work yourself into depression and substance dependence and all that stuff. That's kind of the mantra. I mean trust me on this, like they say it's not, but it is.
Speaker 2:And you know they'll have these bar programs about wellness and meditation and exercise, and they'll have judges who are in the same organization, right, who are just, for example, you know, just relentless. We had a case in Virginia last year where, in a criminal case, one female lawyer of a team of lawyers, her mother, was suddenly diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. That's not a good diagnosis and the lawyer said I need to get out of this case. The judge said no, you can't get out of the case. And I'm like what are we doing here? This is absolutely crazy. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about visioning, because we advocate, like, put aside all of the objections that you're not smart enough, you don't have enough money, you don't know enough people, right, let's just sit down and create. Do you find that's a hard? That's a hard thing for, like all most of the entrepreneurs that you see, it can't be limited to women and it can't be limited to lawyers.
Speaker 1:It's everybody, it's everybody, and I think a lot of times they that you see, it can't be limited to women and it can't be limited to lawyers, it's everybody. It's everybody. And I think a lot of times, you know, the next thing is like oh, I can't even picture a year from now or three years from now. You're talking, you want me to envision out 10 years from now. And I think if once I kind of say to them picture it as a rudder on a ship, like you need to know where the ship's going. And the ship might be going towards the beach with someone holding a margarita, like I'm not saying that you have to keep this thing going for the next 10 years. You might want to sell it, you might want it, you might be out, and that's okay too. Okay, you have to kind of give them permission.
Speaker 1:I call it, I'm giving you permission to say you want to sell this thing in 10 years, or if that's not the case, right Then where do you want to go? And it's, it doesn't have to be a. It's not modern art in the sense of crisp, clear lines. It can be Renaissance art, it can be a vision that's got fuzzy lines, but you have to know where you're directing the ship, right? I think, if you're thinking 10 years out, A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:But don't you find that most entrepreneurs, most of the people who are coming to coaches like you and I, like they're there? They have been doers, oh yes, and achievers their whole life, a hundred percent. They have run a hundred miles an hour.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And it is a weird feeling, or it's even a weird feeling, to vision. Oh, I could be on a boat with a margarita heading towards the beach, like I would be embarrassed because all my team is back there working really hard. Well, yeah, but you were the last one to get paid for you know the?
Speaker 2:first decade of your business too, you were the one on the weekends and everything, and so what are some of the strategies or words that you use when you're coaching a client to get over that sort of I call it founder's guilt, right Hump of? Oh my gosh, it's okay to really even think about building it to sell the thing it is it is.
Speaker 1:So I think two things come to mind. Number one if you can't, if you're having a hard time truly envisioning, like envisioning what this might look like in 10 years, what if you just shifted and started asking yourself what do you want it to feel like? Yes, yes, okay. So what do you want it to feel like? And a lot of times someone will say I just want this to feel easy, I want things to just be flowing, I don't want it to feel so heavy or hard or hustly or that. So they can really easily relate to, or it is easier to relate to how they want to feel, maybe, than how they want it to look. Okay. So that's kind of one way to do it. The other way is I say you need to meet future you. Okay.
Speaker 1:So future you is the person 10 years from now, or it could even just be five years from now, who has this, who is feeling the way you want to feel and who maybe they're not sitting on a beach every day, but maybe they're taking 10 weeks of vacation and they're really truly taking 10 weeks of vacation. They're not taking phone calls in the middle, right? And if you went to that future you and asked them what to do today, the advice that they would be giving you would be so clear. So sometimes people can't decide. So sometimes people can't decide. You know what is my next best step? Right, how should I use this next hour? Well, go ask future you how they think you should use the next hour, or what they think your next step should be. They quickly answer Well, they would say totally I should hire this person, or I definitely should invest in that, or I should even get clear on who my ideal client is, not just everybody and anyone. So if you're having trouble visioning, you can either kind of get into the space of how do I want to feel, or you can kind of go to that future you and future you.
Speaker 1:Sometimes people say to me Andrea, you're at this book called she Thinks Big. What is big thinking? I like to say it's the thinking that future you has done. Like that future you has done the big thinking Present you, not so much because you're kind of in your box right now. You know, rolling along Past you, past you is just a teacher, but it is definitely not a fortune teller. So if you told me well in the past, I like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, you like that. Yeah in the past. I know myself. I know what's gonna happen. I'm just gonna hire this person, but then I'm gonna end up spending so much time like delegating to them and it's just not gonna be. I know myself Okay, that was the past. That doesn't have to be the future, Okay.
Speaker 2:So future, you is your best source of big thinking and visioning, so I don't know how that sounds to you, but that's kind of.
Speaker 1:We like Dan Sullivan and Benjamin.
Speaker 2:Hardy's book. 10x is easier than 2X because if you vision future and you vision your business 10 times as big and you ask yourself what would you be doing to be maintaining that 10x, you figure out the things that you would not be doing and you start by eliminating those. Tell me a little bit more about the book. Yeah, and we're always curious, as entrepreneurs, about writing and using a book actually for client member, customer acquisition.
Speaker 3:So talk to us a little bit about your book.
Speaker 2:I didn't go back to look to see if that's your first or your 31st.
Speaker 1:It's my first book. I have a podcast too, called Time to Level Up, which I'll let you in on a little secret the name is changing in a month of the podcast same podcast, different name to align with the name of the book. But I kind of realized that the podcast was a great way to get my message out there. It's a great marketing tool. It's a great way, if someone has found you somewhere else, that kind of legitimizes what you're doing and if they like the sound of what you're saying, they easily become clients. But a book is just, it's another vehicle.
Speaker 1:So I was going to write an ebook and then my coach said to me why would you write an ebook? Why would you just not write a real book? Like what's up with that? So I kind of got talked into like let's just write a real book. Now, writing a book it's not for the faint of heart, it is quite a journey, right.
Speaker 1:But what I find is people can totally relate to if you, I wrote it almost more of like a series of stories. People can relate or see themselves in those stories and that is excellent, an excellent tool to acquire new clients. So there are people out there reading my book. Obviously that I don't even know. But then sometimes they reach out right and they'll message me, they'll send me an email, they'll stalk me who knows? And say, hey, all of that you really what you were talking about there resonated with me. I really loved chapter seven when you talked about stuck stress and how that's different than progress stress, and I loved how you said you know you talked about like a vision and a plan and it doesn't have to be totally spelled out piece by piece because that scares me. So it's just been a tool to almost help legitimize what people are experiencing and feeling and help them recognize that it doesn't have to be this way. There is help available. You just have to ask for it.
Speaker 2:You've actually just given and I hope people go back to listen to that. What Andrea just said there hit rewind. It's a great marketing tool the art of storytelling. So for our members, when clients can look, so most lawyer advertising Andrea is like hire me because I'm the best and we're either the cheapest or no fee of no recovery. But when you're in your marketing you can use your clients and tell stories and people can find or see themselves in these stories or one of the stories they think oh well, this person knows what I am going through and I think that's just what you were relating there.
Speaker 1:When someone reads.
Speaker 2:You know, a particular chapter of the book is oh my gosh, sounds like she's been listening in on the stories that my spouse and I are having at the dinner table, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean.
Speaker 1:I have nine or 10 different client personas in the book and they kind of you know, I bring them up in different chapters and people you know, sometimes people will say to me I can totally relate to your story about Joan. Like I feel like I'm Joan or I'm Sarah or I'm whatever, and I think that gives them a sense of reassurance and it also gives them a glimmer of hope, right, like, hey, I could improve on this situation If I hired Ben. You know, things would be better. So I think the book and the book surprising me too sometimes, like I had someone reach out to me and say we are reading the book in our book club. Okay, would you be willing to talk to our book club? Okay. So I got on like a 20 minute zoom and I was like, okay, what are you guys reading, what are you discussing? And I shared with them some of my author insights and you know I gained clients from it.
Speaker 1:So I'm sure they were thrilled. They were thrilled by that.
Speaker 2:Like that, and that's another thing I want people who are listening to this podcast to recognize is that those who are dinging the world will share Correct. Sometimes all you have to do is reach out and ask with an interest you know not just to take, but that example, like, hey, our book club is reading this. It'd be really cool if you could come on and answer a couple of questions and you said, yeah, sure, let's look at my calendar and let's find when we'd be able to do that. So, and you know, the other great thing about having a podcast is I'm sure you've discovered this is you get to talk to all sorts of people and ask them questions you want to know right.
Speaker 2:Answers to right like it's uh therapy and coaching all in one.
Speaker 1:it is totally a good way to put it, is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, talk to us about so a little bit, because many entrepreneurs come with a package deal. There's a spouse or a partner, there's often family there and you know, it's just a truth. Like the entrepreneur like thinks differently than most other human beings in the world who are not entrepreneurs, and that can sometimes be a source of conflict. Entrepreneur, doer, risk taker, it's all going to be good. Then there's the other in the family can be like yeah, but I've got my eyes on the numbers for the family.
Speaker 1:You left a real job. I literally just released probably in the last month a podcast literally about this topic, and it's kind of like you're the big thinker but the other person isn't. How do we resolve this conflict in a relationship?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so you're part like counselor there, right? So walk us through some advice for those who are listening here. The entrepreneur is the loneliest can be the loneliest person in the world right they do carry the weight of the world on their shoulders and they go home right and you got home stuff right.
Speaker 1:So I think right. So there's two things. Number one, going back to like what are big thinkers do? So big thinkers talk to future you, but big thinkers also secure support, okay. So sometimes I say, who is supporting you in this business? So I get very practical answers Well, my, I have an admin team and my family's very supportive. They're very supportive. Okay, that's not what I'm talking about. Who is willing to tell you the hard things? Who is willing to help you?
Speaker 1:I like to say you're stuck in your peanut butter jar, okay, and when you're in that little peanut butter jar you can't even get yourself looking up to the rim to see what's going on outside and you can't even see if there's jelly or bread or bananas out there. And your support system your spouse or your partner, is not going to tell you about that. They're just happy You're safe and comfortable in your peanut butter jar. So you do need to secure support a hundred percent. But if there's sort of like this, how do you integrate your ambition or your dreams with what your partner is thinking? I think there's a couple of things I mean. Number one are you clear on what you want your business or your enterprise or your career to look like? Are you really clear? Because if you're not clear, then you can't have a productive conversation, right?
Speaker 1:So sometimes people talk in big generalities like I want to grow this business, okay, well, did you say I want it to be a million dollar business, or did you just say I want it to grow the business? You've got to get clear and kind of, and not just kind of, and share that clarity with them, because that's going to kind of do the second, just kind of, and share that clarity with them because that's gonna kind of do the second thing. It's gonna help enroll them I'll call it this is like enrolling them in your dream or vision, right. And enroll them in your desire to kind of be bigger and better, potentially right. So that's sort of the second thing.
Speaker 1:I think another piece is you have to ask them to trust you, right? You have to ask them to say I know you may not get this, but I know it doesn't make sense to you right now and I totally understand your concerns. But I also know that you want me to be the best version of me and I want you to be a part of that too. So I want you to support me, but I'm prepared to move forward, even if you're not supporting me, and I'll still love you. So there's that, too, which is hard, super hard.
Speaker 2:It is hard, and if you're going to open that discussion, you have to be brave and courageous and able to take some of the hard questions that maybe you've been avoiding because you don't have somebody else to press you.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you one thing I think you'd be interested in. So one of the things we teach and we learned this ourselves in COVID, when there was no playbook for a worldwide pandemic and do you work at home and all of that stuff. And so we learned to ask the question of our employees how can we make this perfect for you? And we follow that up with. Look, we can't guarantee that we can make it perfect, but if you don't have a vision of what a perfect work life would be for you and you don't tell us about it, then we don't have anything to shoot towards. And it's a great spouse-partner conversation as well, because it requires courage to be able to listen to the answer that you're going to get to that question and then to work through it. But so many people, whether it's an employee-employer relationship, whether it's business partner relationship or family partner relationship, they're afraid. They're afraid.
Speaker 1:They're afraid, right, and I think sometimes you know why someone isn't necessarily supporting you is because, like they might feel threatened by this, like it's going to mean that they're going to be inconvenienced or it's going to mean that you know you're not going to be around as much and there's going to be more of a burden on them. It also might mean that it's going to create an imbalance, like this whole work-life balance thing, like it's not going to happen. So those are kinds of the discussions you need to have what would make this a win for you, you the entrepreneur, and then what would make this a win for you, the family member or the business partner or the whatever? Defining like what would make it a win or sometimes I say what would make it a home run is really important. I love how you asked that during COVID. That was a great, great question.
Speaker 2:You know the original instinct was the owners need to make up the rules and you know we had a lot of space here so it was safe. If it was better for you to come work inside the building, that was fine. But if you had kids at home and needed childcare, you know we like tell us about it and let's see what we can do about it. We've carried that over and you know it is part of our culture here. It's everybody the carried that over and you know it is part of our culture here. It's everybody. The challenge, andrea, is no one's ever asked them that question before, and even if they've heard that question before, it wasn't followed up with anything meaningful, so I think it's BS, just like the last time they heard it.
Speaker 2:It's BS. You know all this like we're a big family and you know we're a happy place, so entrepreneurs need to have courage. Let's talk about a couple of things. You know we talk about the small business owner, the small business founder. You say that the use of that phrase stifles growth. Talk to us a little bit about that, what you would be saying instead.
Speaker 1:Well, to you, as the founder or the owner, is your business small or is it big? Relative to you, it's big. So when we think of it as like a small business, it's not small To you, it is a big thing. And I think staying small, sometimes that can stifle the growth. So someone might say, well, I don't. Actually, this happened today. This literally happened.
Speaker 1:Today, someone's at the place where they really do need to hire some people Okay, there's no way that they're going to grow any more unless they have more resources in terms of manpower, brainpower and they're afraid that they're going to kind of get too big Okay, I'm putting that in air quotes too big. And if they hire someone on, not only are they going to get too big, it's going to be more work for them because now they're gonna have to manage this person and they don't really want to manage the person. So they're just and she even she literally even said this I'm just a small business, I don't need to grow to be whatever. Well, you don't need to, but do you want to? Because the last three minutes ago you just told me that you want to increase your revenue and you want to impact more people and you want more clients.
Speaker 1:How are we doing this? But people can go back, or she's going back to I'm just a small business, and I think that's a story that she's telling herself. She's also making that term small business mean something. I mean businesses that have 500 employees and I know there's like technical terms for this that we could, you know, google and say what is the definition of a small business, what's the definition of a means? But you know, they sometimes think of themselves as small businesses, depending on who the players are in their industry or in their vertical Right.
Speaker 2:So I was just reading some article this morning. It made some big generalized statement about small business and then in the article it defined it as 500.
Speaker 1:And I'm like see, like I mean, I think you and I think of small businesses, not 500 and under anything, but it's like 50 and under or even less, but that's, it's all relative, it's all relative. So I think for the founder if we're talking about founders of businesses it's stifling to think of yourself as a small business, because you really need to do some big thinking and put yourself in a different headspace than the small confines of small business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. So one of the things we say is look, so many founders have built themselves a nice, decent, paying or well-paying job, Right, and if that's your deliberate choice and you really don't have the vision to grow, yeah it's fine. I have a daughter who's in the dog grooming industry and she's not an owner but she makes a ton of money. But as I watch and go to conferences with her and watch these people who are owners and have been in the industry for 30 years like they're still working 60 hours a week.
Speaker 2:Right right owners and have been in the industry for 30 years, like they're still working 60 hours a week. It's okay if that's your choice, I guess, but so many of them could build something really fabulous if they weren't the ones picking up the clippers and the scissors. You know every single day doing a dozen dogs. So let's go back to talk about something because we agreed that. You know, founders are people who are doers in the beginning of many small business, particularly law firms. You're doing everything Like when you decide I'm getting out of this crap hole that I'm in working for these other people because I'm going to start my own gig and it's all going to be perfect, and then you end up doing everything which is fine for a while, and many of us have been there. Most of us have been there.
Speaker 2:Then there's this movement to strategic thinker new skill. New skill Didn't teach it in law school. No, didn't teach it in law school. Profession doesn't even have classes on strategic thinking for your business. They have classes on how to be a better cross-examiner, how to pick a jury nothing on strategic thinking for your business. They have classes on how to be a better cross-examiner, how to pick a jury nothing on strategic thinking for your business. But there's a mindset part and then I guess there's a practical component. I'm curious about the mindset part first, and then I am curious about who you like, who are the authors or the other podcast hosts or gurus that you say to your clients go listen, watch, read. But let's talk about the mindset first, of getting away from the doer to the strategic thinker.
Speaker 1:I like to picture it as like a wedding cake, like a layered cake. Okay, so at the top of the cake is really the visionary, like that's the top layer, up there, that's the smallest layer. Underneath that is more of a leader. Okay, underneath that might be a manager, underneath that might be someone that's really just they're able to follow a process, and then under that is just the tasks master and the doers. And I think there's. We skip a lot of those layers, first of all as we start to grow, because first you're going to have, you're just the, you're the visionary, the leader, you're the manager, you're the person coming up with the processes, and then you all of a sudden you realize you need the doer. Okay, so we add the doer and then it kind of goes from there. Sometimes we have too many doers and we don't have those middle people. But thinking strategically about why you need all of those layers is hard because you are capable of doing it. So I don't know if you're familiar with traction and entrepreneurial operating system.
Speaker 2:We're huge proponents. We have been running the law firm for years on it. Okay, here's the book. How ironic it's right here next to me.
Speaker 1:So do they get it, want it and have the capacity to do it? You get it, probably, although it's hard to, you know, increase your strategic thinking skills, but you get it. You want it, but you get to a place where you don't have the capacity right. So then you hire for someone who does have the capacity. But do they get it? Do they want it? So I think teaching strategic thinking, or infusing strategic thinking into yourself, let alone others, is really work, and I think there is an element of it that's trial and error. People are like I have to try this and see if it works. True, but I do think that there's some underlying fundamental business principles that, no matter what kind of business you have, it's going to apply, even if and then we can go into, like well, where the legal industry is different, or people tell me, you know, architecture is different.
Speaker 2:My town is different.
Speaker 1:You know we're just. You might not understand. Okay, yeah, I might not understand the Itty bitty nuances, but the general principles of running a business I get.
Speaker 2:So thinking strategically with your business owner hat on versus your attorney hat is a skill I don't know and so, yes, and one of the ways for folks who are listening I mean they know like one of the ways is to get yourself into rooms.
Speaker 2:So many of us have coaches, one-on-one coaches, but we also are huge proponents of mastermind groups. If it's a curated group and you're in the room with people who are doing things bigger, better and faster than you are, right, right, and it can be. We call it mixed breed, so it can be all lawyers, or it can be business owners Yep, lawyers, or it can be business owners, because some of the best ideas in any profession, in any business vertical, some of the best ideas come from the guy next to you who's in a completely different business vertical. How do you get customers and clients? Who are some of the people or the resources you mentioned, traction and EOS Entrepreneur Operating System who you send your clients to, your coaching clients say, hey, here's a person or a genre of books that would be beneficial for you to go and read.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at my shelf right now.
Speaker 2:Andrea's looking at her bookshelf.
Speaker 1:I got a whole stack under here too. I think one of the books that is great is Buy Back your Time, dan Martell, I don't know, yeah, okay. So I think he's got some really practical ideas that are easy to implement, that hit on the mindset issues that a lot of people have, and then he's created systems around it. I think that's a great book. I think Gay Hendricks oh my gosh has a goldfish on the front Big Leap, the Big Leap, okay. So that's kind of big thinking, that kind of book. I think that's a great one.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of what Michael Hyatt does.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you're familiar with him, but figuring out what to focus on, how to manage your day, I like following him and then, I think, really understanding how to have better conversations. There's a book called crucial conversations. I think that's a great one. I don't know. Those are some books that sort of just come to mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all good stuff. Let's talk a little bit about like your business and your business model. Is it all one-on-one?
Speaker 1:No, it no. So actually the vast majority of what I do is in small group and it also does have some one-on-one components. So I have a mastermind and it's funny because you said mixed breed, I'm going to borrow that because it's a mixed breed mastermind and that we meet on Zoom, but then we also get together in person twice a year. I think there's a benefit of that, to have that kind of in-person component 100%.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, discussions in the halls and at breakfast and at dinner time, exactly.
Speaker 1:So I do that and then you know I've got two other groups but one of the most fun I think it's really the most fun and most beneficial ways that a lot of people start working with me is by doing this half-day intensive which I call vision into action, which is kind of creating a business plan, because a lot of people they created a business plan on day one and then it got shoved in the drawer and they haven't looked at it since and they think why do I even need one, I mean, I never follow it.
Speaker 3:It just makes me depressed.
Speaker 1:I never reached the goals anyway. So I really come at it as a working document that's just got two parts I mean it's got parts within the parts, but outlining your vision, what we were talking about, and then what are your next best steps, what are the actions? And that's something that everybody craves, and it's useful to pause, to take a half a day just to think about where you're going and how you're going to get there Not on the fly, not in 30 minutes For a whole, devoting the time, Like I think one thing that's great about coaching is coaches we hold space for people, Like we hold that space and if we're asking the right questions while we're holding the space, you can really go farther faster.
Speaker 2:It's a huge gift to give yourself. You know, the time to think, and that's why books like Martel Cal Newport has a new book, the author of Deep Work, because you know the reality is so many entrepreneurs, and particularly lawyers, it's just do all day long. You're exhausted, you never carve out, have a coach or you're heading to an in-person mastermind group, which is which. If a virtual mastermind group is great, then getting together in person is 10x that.
Speaker 2:It just is, and so is your half day intensive. Are they coming to you? You're going to them?
Speaker 1:No, we do. I do it virtually. I do it virtually 99% of the time they can't come to me, but a lot of times we just do it virtually and it's a half day and then we do a follow-up session a couple of weeks later, just after you've had time to simmer and sift through it, and I do give you some pre-work ahead of time. So it's a great, intense, slash, designated block of time where you will see yourself make progress.
Speaker 2:Is it with founder? And spouse? Is it leadership team or not? Nope, not your team.
Speaker 1:Although I do, sometimes I do them. That's a different thing. I've done it with teams, but usually it's just two or three founders together and sometimes people say, well, I just, you know, I don't know, I think I want to do a one-on-one with you which we could do. But there is something because it's kind of turns into a little bit of a mastermind kind of thing, where you're gathering ideas from those two or three other people in the room, so and I include that as part of some of my packages, but people can also do it as a standalone so I know that your focus, at least, is on women entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Tell us a little bit how women are different, or how the experience of being an entrepreneur is different, do you think, for a woman than it is for men. We're going to generalize a little bit. Somebody might not like this part of the discussion. Right, you can send us hate mail afterwards.
Speaker 1:It's okay, we'll listen to you. I think that I think two things. I think number one. You know, I had actually my mastermind called today.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's a group of women. They're all over the country, someone's in Iowa, someone's in Florida, someone's in Texas. They're all over, own different businesses and, you know, we start out talking about I don't know what we started out talking. We started out actually talking about time, but it got to a place where someone said you know, I am feeling like she used the rollercoaster analogy I'm at the, I feel like I'm at the bottom of the rollercoaster, the big dip, and I'm just, you know, I don't know how I got here, cause in February I felt like I was at the top, so I actually stopped the call. I'm like, okay, listen up, get out your pencils. I'm giving you four minutes to write down all of the things that you have accomplished in the last five months of the year, like January to now.
Speaker 1:Okay, so they did. And four minutes later we shared. Okay, so they did. And you know, four minutes later we shared. And I think there was such a combination of sharing of business goals that they have achieved or things that happened in their business, but then also someone's like yeah, my kid graduated from college and I, you know, renovated my kitchen, and so all of those discussions come into play and I always say like, yes, we're here talking about business, but life is part of business and it's all fair game. It's all like a big ball of yarn. So nine times out of 10, you know, there's some life coaching that occurs during the business coaching and that can happen with men too, but I think it it happens more with women, in a sense that can happen with men too, but I think it it happens more with women.
Speaker 2:In a sense, I don't know. Most of my talks with most of my talks with my law clients, who are all have my clients have some sickness or illness that prevents them from working. Most of it gets around to life yeah, isn't it interesting it's like all right, what are we going to do next?
Speaker 2:okay, you have this thing and you're getting a check from insurance company, but you don't want to be dependent on the insurance company like what are we doing? And many of them have never had someone have that discussion with them before. The other thing as you were saying that and you were talking about the bottom of the roller coaster and the top of the roller coaster, I'm thinking for me, top of the roller coaster is a really scary place to be. It is, it is it's going to start to go fast. You're right.
Speaker 1:You're right and shake. It's so true. It's so true All right, let's talk.
Speaker 2:This has been wonderful. You're fabulous. Tell us how people who are listening to this podcast can take a next step, discover more value. Obviously, you have the Time to Level Up podcast to be renamed shortly.
Speaker 1:To be renamed, so it's going to be-.
Speaker 2:Consistent with the she Thinks Big book.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you can, you know, go get the book on Amazon or your favorite bookseller. She Thinks Big. Go listen to my podcast. If you go to Andrea's with an S links with an S, so andreaslinkscom you're going to find links to all of these things, including my website. Social media I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram the most, but you know I always say that, like you know, I'm always open for a conversation, like I am always open to getting on a call with you and just brainstorming with you for a half an hour, and you know we don't even have to work together. But I hope those calls are worth thousands of dollars and they're not. There's no cost to it. It's I always learned. It's kind of like this, like I always learned something doing this and I always learned something from just talking to anyone out there. So I would encourage anyone to just reach out and let's have a conversation, See if it can help you.
Speaker 2:Again, folks I mean people who are producers in the world are are really willing most of them to have a conversation like that. Yeah, because we like to talk to interested and interesting people. Don't show up without a notebook. If you're talking to Andrea, like don't just think you're going to show up and she's just going to look into your brain and magically tell you exactly what to do For success.
Speaker 2:That's not what to do for success. That's not what it is. Right, right, but, but show up, be curious, check her stuff out. Who's how big is your media team behind you? Do you have cause? You're? You are big on.
Speaker 1:I don't know. A lot of it's grassroots, I mean. There's not a lot of there's. It's not. There's nothing behind the smoke and mirrors here. So you know I do. I have tapped into resources, though, in the past year to help promote the book, tapped into resources to help get my message out there. But you know a lot of it's me and my team of people that are supporting me. I mean I'd be honest, right, we can't do this all by ourselves. Like I don't produce my own podcast. I'll be honest on that one. So, yeah, even if it's just to say, hey, who does do your podcast, or who does do you? Let's have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Well, that team reached out to me and that's why we ended up talking to each other. Look, this has been fabulous. The book is she Thinks Big, available at any place. You can buy books and then Andrea's links A-N-D-R-E-A-S-L-A-N-K-Scom. I guess right will take you to an array of resources. It's been fabulous. Hold on for a second after we turn off. I want to just chat for another couple minutes if you have a moment. It's been fabulous. Thanks so much for your time today. Thanks for having me.
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