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The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
I am more convinced than ever that nothing that traditional bar organizations are doing is going to move the needle on the sad stats on lawyer happiness ...
The root cause of all lawyers' problems is financial stress. Financial stress holds you back from getting the right people on the bus, running the right systems, and being able to only do work for clients you want to work with. Financial stress keeps you in the office on nights and weekends, often doing work you hate for people you don't like, and doing that work alone.
(Yes, you have permission to do only work you like doing and doing it with people you like working with.)
The money stress is not because the lawyers are bad lawyers or bad people. In fact, most lawyers are good at the lawyering part and they are good people.
The money stress is caused by the general lack of both business skills and an entrepreneurial mindset.
Thus, good lawyers who are good people get caught up and slowed down in bringing their gifts to the world. Their families, teams, clients, and communities are not well-served because you can't serve others at your top level when you are constantly worrying about money.
We can blame the law schools and the elites of the profession who are running bar organizations, but to blame anyone else for your own woes is a loser's game. It is, in itself, a restrictive, narrow, mindset that will keep you from ever seeing, let alone experiencing, a better future.
Lawyers need to be in rooms with other entrepreneurs. They need to hang with people who won't tell you that your dreams are too big or that "they" or "the system "won't allow you to achieve them. They need to be in rooms where people will be in their ear telling them that their dreams are too small.
Get in better rooms. That would be the first step.
Second step, ignore every piece of advice any general organized bar is giving about how to make your firm or your life better.
The Renegade Lawyer Podcast
Unveiling Profinder International's Legal Revolution with Zuly Murphy
Ever wished you could supercharge your legal processes and simultaneously enjoy the cost-saving benefits of an out-of-country workforce? Zuly Murphy, the founder of Profinder International, brings to us her groundbreaking solution. We explore her unique journey from her humble beginnings in Puerto Vallarta, to her entrepreneurial breakthrough eight years ago, founding a company that caters to optimizing and accelerating legal procedures. Zuly’s Puerto Vallarta hub has emerged as a nexus of globalization, bridging the gap between the necessity of local control and the cost-effectiveness of international resources.
Zuly and Ben Glass dive into the nuts and bolts of Profinder International's operations, drawing back the curtain on how they assist attorneys in focusing on billable hours by streamlining existing tools and workflows. We take a deep look into the ways Profinder International reaches out and builds enduring relationships in the legal marketing sphere, ultimately assisting law firms in becoming community icons. By the end of this conversation, you will not only be enlightened on the best ways to reach out to Profinder International but also gain a novel perspective on how law firms can become heroes to their families and communities. Don't miss this insightful episode, as we pick the brain of a pioneer revolutionizing the legal industry, one firm at a time.
Ben Glass is a nationally recognized personal injury and long-term disability insurance attorney in Fairfax, VA. Since 2005, Ben Glass and Great Legal Marketing have been helping solo and small firm lawyers make more money, get more clients and still get home in time for dinner. We call this TheGLMTribe.com
What Makes The GLM Tribe Special?
In short, we are the only organization within the "business builder for lawyers" space that is led by two practicing lawyers.
One thing we're sure you've noticed is that despite the variety of options within our space, no one else is mixing
the actual practice of law with business building in the way that we are.
There are no other organizations who understand the highs and lows of running a small law firm and are engaged in talking to real clients. That is what sets GLM apart from every other organization, and it is why we have had loyal members that have been with us for two-decades.
I was happy to hear you saying and let's just talk about that for a few minutes, because I think many lawyers look at companies that are helping find out-of-country workers I'm just going to find me a Billy or a Suzy and going to pay less because they're working from overseas. Whatever, you're really adding something different, though. You have a real value add. Let's talk about that a bit, because I think it's important for lawyers who are looking to grow to know what it is you're offering. That's a little bit different, I think, from some of these other companies.
Speaker 2:That's correct. I call it the halfway solution, what sometimes they're getting, which is, yes, the savings and salaries are very attractive, but at the end, you end up hiring a staff member through the help of a third-party provider. You have now staff that is sitting in Latin America or even in the Philippines, but is it still your staff?
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, the show where we ask the questions why aren't more lawyers living flourishing lives and inspiring others? And can you really get wealthy while doing only the work you love with people you like? Many lawyers are. Get ready to hear from your host, ben Glass, the founder of the law firm Ben Glass Law in Fairfax, virginia, and Great Legal Marketing, an organization that helps good people succeed by coaching, inspiring and supporting law firm owners. Join us for today's conversation.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, this is Ben Glass. This is the Renegade Lawyer Podcast, where, each episode, I get to talk to interesting people inside and outside the legal profession. Today, I've got Zuley Murphy on the line. Zuley was a vendor sponsor at our recently completed Great Legal Marketing Summit down in Orlando. She's got a very interesting business helping lawyers move things faster by having out-of-country processes and employees. It's a whole new world for lawyers. A lot of my friends are in this space, zuley, where they're experimenting with this. Your company, though, has some really neat processes that we were just talking about before we went live. I want to dive into it. The company, of course, is Profinder International. Thanks for carving out some time to be with me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the invitation. The event was wonderful. I actually see why your tribe follows you. I think all the information that you provide is amazing. We're working with attorneys for eight years now. I understand a lot of the pain points that you guys were able to display there and with all the information, I'm sure a lot of your attorneys have a very large task list to follow.
Speaker 1:Well, they do, and so part of what we're pretty good at is helping a lawyer figure out. Okay, here's where I am, here's all the stuff I just heard. How do I go? Where do I invest my next dollar, my next hour? In the building of my business, because there's a lot of good solutions. And in that hallway you talk to a lot of other people that are providing goods and services, and they're all really good people and they all have a good product or service. Not everything is the right thing for the right firm at this time, so we were so happy to have you and your team there. But first, you're an entrepreneur. This is your company, so tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to creating Profinder International.
Speaker 2:It all started when I realized that I really liked the marketing and that's the degree I went to study for. However, you know how life takes you in different directions. I actually worked for the media for a while. I was a radio personality here in Puerto Vallarta. Puerto Vallarta is my hometown. This is where I grew up, this is where I know everything and everybody, and that comes really handy for what I do now and what I have been doing in the last eight years.
Speaker 2:So I went through media and then I started working with companies. I actually worked with very interestingly with foreign companies and that's how I understood how world-class ethics were very important. And through the years of working with the different perspectives and working in Mexico as well, with these great people that we have in this country, specifically Puerto Vallarta by lingual and by cultural people that can align with the culture of any business in the US, in Canada and so much anywhere in the world. So that's how it started.
Speaker 1:And it's a beautiful place. So now we know we can come visit you if we're bringing a group to Puerto Vallarta in Mexico, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and maybe some time down the line should be in Puerto Vallarta, because it's a beautiful city, it's super international, it's really well connected to the major cities in the US, in Canada and even with some destinations in Europe, so it's growing. It's been a hidden gem for a while, but it's actually a really nice place. Whoever comes here wants to come back again and even move down here. Before I started working with companies and attorneys, I actually was the sales and marketing manager and then the GM for a recruitment and head hunting company. That's where I realized that I had talent sourcing people, training them and helping developing stuff.
Speaker 2:Through all my career I had always been leader and always had people that I actually had to grow every part of the things that I did. And eight years ago I found my first attorney client who was here in Puerto Vallarta looking for some options of staffing. He had found some other options in other places in Latin America, but he really wanted to explore Puerto Vallarta because Puerto Vallarta is just beautiful. So we started working together and he started with two staff members in Mexico in Puerto Vallarta. We grew that operation for 30 people within three years and that's when I realized how attorneys are business people that require to preserve their time, and a way of doing that is by training systems, training staff and having someone oversee that part of the operation so they can actually focus on their practice, focus on billable hours in expanding and doing other things with the support staff that everybody dreams with.
Speaker 2:The turnover we found out when you do the correct training, you have systems in place, is lower than any other company doing the same thing. That's when I felt very proud and finally this model worked and throughout this years band we've heard and we are trying to be very part of what everybody is seeing like in this case with some clients. Well, they were absorbing the EOS model and so we know the best practices that attorneys now are following. We are trying to keep up with those so we can offer those methodologies to be applied. And that's why it was amazing to see this summit and hear all these unknown concepts that do work, because we've seen them and, yeah, it's exciting.
Speaker 1:So here's what I find really interesting is, as I go around to conferences, both to speak but also to be in attendance and hear what other lawyers are doing the idea of outside of America support teams is growing. I still think it's a huge market and opportunity for you and for companies like yours, because lawyers are slow, like to change things. Before we went live, I was asking about the process with someone like steps up and starts to work with you. We'll talk about that in a minute, but you said something very important, because one of the things that Profinder was doing is helping lawyers create steps and written processes, and this is a part of EOS and it's a part of any good organization. And, as from working with lawyers, they didn't get that in law school, they don't get it in the profession and most of them, I'm betting, are coming to you with a process in their head that they've used, they think, but it's not written down, it's not followed by everyone. I was happy to hear you say and let's just talk about that for a few minutes, because I think many lawyers look at companies that are helping find out of country workers and I'm just going to find me a Billy or a Susie, and going to pay less because they're working.
Speaker 1:Hey guys, this is Ben. If you like what you've been hearing on this podcast not just the marketing and practice building strategies, but the philosophy of the art of living your best life parts you should know that my son, brian, and I have built a tribe of like-minded lawyers who are living lives of their own design and creating tremendous value for the world within the structure of a law practice. We invite you to join us at the only membership organization for entrepreneurial lawyers that is run by two full time practicing attorneys. Check us out at greatlabelmarketingcom From overseas. Whatever, you're really adding something different, though, like you have a real value add. So let's talk about that a bit, because I think it's important for lawyers who are looking to grow to know what it is you're offering. That's a little bit different, I think, from some of these other companies.
Speaker 2:That's correct. I call it the halfway solution, what sometimes they are getting, which is, yes, the savings and salaries are very attractive, but at the end you end up like hiring a staff member through the help of a third party provider. You have now staff that is sitting in Latin America or even in the Philippines, but it's still your staff. You have to train them and now you're caught into this problem of you don't understand a lot of the cultural elements that go around these interactions and that can be very problematic with us. We really care about the result, and it's really interesting, ben, because I don't think our job is done until the attorney actually gets to the goal of scaling their operation, until they are getting the revenue in.
Speaker 2:And the way that we do it is we first analyze how do they operate, what systems do they use, what software, crm, what is it that they are using at the moment? And then we start to think how can we make all those tools work remotely? We have used many tools throughout the time, like for phone systems and whatnot. We can always suggest things that we've used and worked, and then we just start creating workflows. We need to understand the process from a very general point of view, because even though you're hiring maybe just phone appointment setters with us that department only we need to know how they interact and what blockers could they be in the rest of the operation.
Speaker 2:And once you know that and the staff actually has the clarity of how they contribute what parts are they responsible for then we are better equipped to actually go above and beyond the result that some attorneys are already used to, because we really care for. If, for example, a conversion number used to be a 20% of a total lead in the phone appointment setting department, we would like to reach out to 40%. So we are always measuring how we're doing. When are the attorneys that we work for and with they have data we like to compare, we like to know where we're starting, we like to know how are we helping and how can we help more and establishing realistic goals for the staff so they actually are motivated and the goals are realistic and we can get to the milestones and go from there. So we are very systematic and very documented based and that's what I think it's part of the success.
Speaker 1:Yes, you have a whole nother business buried inside your business, right? So I don't know if you're looking for this, but here you are, sitting there and you are analyzing, in this case, how lawyers around the country, or maybe around the world, are running their businesses, and then you're helping them, because, before we find the human being that we're going to put in a seat to add to the business, you're helping them make sure they actually have a process. You're looking at crossing, going hey, here's something you maybe haven't thought about how you can improve the process. Let's fix that. Okay, now we can get you a human being to sit in that seat to follow that process.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you're doing that yet, but it seems to me that you're in a perfect position as a business coach too, because I'm sure these lawyers especially if they're solo and small firm lawyers they're coming to you without written processes. Like we said before, you're asking them like data. They probably don't know their data, but if they have a CRM, somebody can go dig into it, right? Yes, they can dig into files. So that's really fascinating. Now, is Profinder only in the legal market, or are you providing these types of services for other industries?
Speaker 2:We're providing the services for other industries. We are doing it for medical tourism, which is a real big industry as well, but we've been doing this for eight years and you know what the legal industry is really interesting. I know that a lot of people are very scared of working with attorneys because attorneys have a way of thinking that is very different and I actually have enjoyed that because it actually complements the relationship. Well, the attorney can actually solve cases that are very complex and study the law. I actually feel very proud when we are able to get the operation to a point when they know that they don't need to be here 24 seven.
Speaker 2:There was the case, one case of one attorney we worked with at the beginning that we started the relationship. He barely took any time off. He was in the office longer hours, his family was not very happy, he had two little babies and he barely took any time off. So when finally we put together the systems, the people and everything there was one time we had this conversation he asked do you think I could leave one week? I'm like for sure, go for it. And he told me you can call me this time. You can be, I will be checking in every morning I said listen, you need to enjoy, go ahead, take your time off. We're fine. If there's an absolute emergency, I will call you promise. But if it's not and there's something that we can solve, we'll take care of it. And he took for the first time one complete week off and then that same year he took another two weeks off and it was absolutely amazing. That's what we knew. We were doing a good job then.
Speaker 1:Taking time off can be addicting and, unfortunately, like so many lawyers, especially in the solo and small firm market, they're running they don't they're not really running a business. They have a job that they created for themselves and it's a very busy job, and they don't know even how to ask themselves for time off. And so, again, I'm impressed that you're not only providing bodies, human beings, but you're helping these lawyers with better processes so that they can be freed up to do what they're paid to do, which is to think creatively about legal solutions to legal problem. That's, at the end of the day, what we are doing. Yes, yeah, so some of the questions that the lawyers who have not experienced this type of a business before often have questions about things like client confidentiality, security I think less and less even have questions about how I manage taxes and employment law and all that sort of stuff with an out-of-country worker. But talk to us for a minute about security, confidentiality, those sort of things. So I'm sure you must get asked that question a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's important. You attorneys have sensitive information of their clients, and that's one of the things that we really think differentiates our service with other services. We hire people to work from an on-site perspective, so they have to be in an office, and we do have processes. First of all, right at the beginning, at the entrance, there's lockers. People have to leave their belongings there. There's no phones, there's no flash drives, there's nothing that comes into the premises.
Speaker 2:In the workstations we don't store information in the local desktop. We actually just work with whatever cloud-based solution is attorney using, and we actually select the people very well. It all starts with the recruitment. We do a great background search.
Speaker 2:Throughout the years, we as well applied a battery of tests that have been really good to narrow down the people that would work for a position and actually cover the other parts, which is to be trustworthy. And as well, we signed confidentiality agreements with every staff member that we have. We do sign one between the company and the client, and one important thing, too, is that we don't cheat employees. We comply with employment laws of Mexico and the staff is well taken care of, and that's why a lot of our staff likes to stay with us for a long period of time and our turnover is very low because people feel treated with respect. We actually care about their mental health as well and we offer that as part of everything. Especially after the pandemic we learn how important was that aspect for the employees and we really treat them in a way that we want them to actually treat the clients over client and to take everything very seriously and professionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're looking, as would we, for win relationships between team members and the firm, between team members and the clients that the firm serves. So for you, for Profinder, who is the ideal attorney client law firm that raises their hand and says I'd like to work, because I'm sure it's not everybody you must have a favorite profile. So who would that be? What would that look like?
Speaker 2:It's a attorney that would like to one grow, that is open to analyze the processes and cares about quality. It's not about just bottom like rock bottom price reduction. It's actually more than that. So we are looking for clients that want to scale their business, that they understand that this is a commitment that is long term to. We don't like to think of clients that it's like and this is a question that somebody asked me recently Can we do a contract month to month? My answer is no, because we're hiring staff and staff cannot be just dismissed after one month when you change your mind. The attorneys that work with us need to know that they have a plan. If they are using a system and methodology, it's even better, because then we can actually do this multiplier for them faster. A company to grow require a lot of cash, and when you do it through the savings of the staff in Mexico, you can do it faster. So I think those would be some of the things that we would hope to find in our clients.
Speaker 1:Yes, and are the humans that you are working with in Mexico. Are they then typically attached to one firm and doing a 40 hour, basically a full work week?
Speaker 2:Exactly, and actually we keep with our clients grow to the point that they have more than five staff members. We actually dedicate a space exclusively for that law firm where we keep separate from everybody else compensation, the job processes, everything. We've helped some attorneys to actually create assets in Mexico and that's another great opportunity. Yes, yes, so they end up buying their offices spaces down here as well, and then that secures even more. We really act like if we are at extension of the law firm and we care a lot about their culture to understand what they stand for, so we can align everybody into that position. Now the employment and the liability is directly with Profinder International, but they are assigned to a client and we don't mix them much. We just grow so many to stay in that law firm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so the whole employment situation is great, because when lawyers are attempting to go direct now, they have to be concerned with not only, I think, their own state employment law in some states in America like it's really weird but maybe even a foreign based even a state or an area inside of another country, like and try to understand all that. So that's hard. So you're providing a valuable service. Give us some ideas really of the types of positions that you are helping lawyers fill and solve for, as you mentioned, I think, the phone answering, appointment centers, what else.
Speaker 2:We do customer service paralegals Obviously, paralegal, it's not a position or people certified in Mexico that they would require supervision from the attorney at all times and we have as well back office positions, such as bookkeeping. We do have some admin roles, if you need somebody to be doing or placing orders, that kind of thing as well marketing, some graphic designers, social media. We do have a very wide variety of positions and in Puerto Vallarta, the good news is that people, as I mentioned before, they're bilingual and bicultural and when they work with us and they are trained in a way that they are very detail oriented and we really, in order to qualify for any of our positions, they need to go through a lot of filters.
Speaker 1:This has been awesome. Suley, if people want to take a next step, reach out, chat with you. What's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, linkedin, it could be. You can find me, suley Murphy Aviles, or you can actually send me an email, suley Murphy, at ProfinderInternationalcom, and I will be very happy to explore the possibilities that we can offer you immediately.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Look. Thanks so much for your time today. I'm going to stop the record button. Then I have a question for you. Thank you for your time. This is awesome. Thank you for your participation at the summit a couple of weeks ago. We look forward to having a great relationship together because you're helping lawyers and we're helping lawyers in different ways and we want them to have happier lives, so it's a great relationship to have. Thank you.
Speaker 3:If you like what you just heard on the Renegade Lawyer podcast, you may be a perfect fit for the great legal marketing community. Law firm owners across the country are becoming heroes to their families and icons in their communities. They've gone Renegade by rejecting the status quo of the legal profession so they can deliver high quality legal services coupled with top notch customer service to clients who pay, stay and refer. Learn more at GreatLegalMarketingcom. That's GreatLegalMarketingcom.
